Help us with a study on Carnivore!

[SallyB]

Hello, our clinic does a lot of nutritional counseling and we want to give current, relevant, accurate advice without bias! We are looking for volunteers for a (we think groundbreaking) pilot study comparing nutrient adequacy (using Cell Science Systems Micronutrient Assay, a simple blood test) between the Carnivore diet and the Mediterranian diet (as a control). We simply want to know objectively if either or both of these diets provide the baseline nutrients (vitamins, minerals, amino acids) needed to maintain a healthy human body. We are not testing cholesterol. Subjects need to be on either diet for 6 months at 90% or more consistency and willing to fill out a health survey and diet questionnaire. Results will be published and discussed at an integrative medical convention in Spring, 2025. (Organizer has no bias or belief system regarding either diet!) The test costs $200, and while we are looking for funding to cover test costs, (anyone have an idea?) at this time lab test cost is the responsibility of the subject and is paid directly to the lab. Contact Mountain Apple Medicine, Hawaii for more info. ALOHAatDOCSALLYNDdotCOM. THANKS!

[Bob]

I let this one through because I was unable to determine if this is legit or not, but I have some reservations. Be aware that DocSallyND.com is a parked domain. There is no website there. There is also no online presence or Google Map location for any business called "Mountain Apple Medicine". 

There is a "Dr Sally Daughtrey ND" on this page...

https://hawaiind.org/nd/mountain-apple-medicine/

... but our member named has the username SallyB.

And some final thoughts....

9 hours ago, SallyB said:

The test costs $200, and while we are looking for funding to cover test costs, (anyone have an idea?) at this time lab test cost is the responsibility of the subject and is paid directly to the lab

What is being tested, and what lab is being used? Several key labs are actually very cheap at the lab services we typically recommend.

9 hours ago, SallyB said:

We simply want to know objectively if either or both of these diets provide the baseline nutrients (vitamins, minerals, amino acids) needed to maintain a healthy human body.

There is a plethora of information on the internet, from nutritionists, doctors, MD's and DO's, etc who have already done this research.

 

My apologies for my skepticism in advance if this is legit, but I have a responsibility to protect the community.

[SallyB]

Excellent!  I understand your concerns, there is a lot of weird out there...  It would be very helpful to have links to these resources as I find a lot of chatter and opinion but not a lot of science on the topic! Apologies if these have already been put out there, I am new to the site. 

As I said, we are using the Cell Science Micronutrient Test (Assay). Here is a link to the company:  ALCAT Test | Food Intolerance Test | Food Sensitivity | Cell Science Systems  We have asked the company to provide discounted or free tests for our subjects, and they are 'getting back to us'.  We are open to other tests as well, the study is in the design phase at this time. Also, constructive opinions welcome.  Also, support from anyone more experienced in clinical research also welcome.  I am a doctor, not a researcher! 

Yes, my website is currently being remodeled.  

Thanks!

Sally

[SallyB]

Here is the website for the overall practice that is currently up, with my private practice site in the (too long)  remodeling phase:   https://www.vitalitymedicine.org/

Apologies for the lack of intro! 

So a bit of background:  I have over 20 years of experience treating severe GI disorders and have prescribed a version of the carnivore diet (SIBO intro diet, animal products only) for over a decade, usually very successfully, in practice.  When I recommend it, I get significant pushback and logical questions such as "How do I know that I am getting all of my vitamins and minerals from this diet?"  Well, there is no actual research that I can find that even begins to answer this question.  There are opinion pieces like this: Current Opinion in Endocrinology, Diabetes and Obesity (lww.com)  There are diet and symptom surveys and positions of concern like this: Limitations of Self-reported Health Status and Metabolic Markers among Adults Consuming a “Carnivore Diet” - PMC (nih.gov) but I find nothing about vitamin and mineral adequacy that actually looks at real patient samples to see if said vitamins and minerals are there, compared to those on a 'normal' diet.  As you may know, standard lab testing generally does not assess most nutritional markers. Thus, this simple study uses a lab designed for the purpose. All we want to do is run this blood test on people who have been on a 90% or more Carnivore diet for 6 months or more (and who have NOT taken any supplements) and see what vitamins, minerals and amino acids are present in the samples. We are not looking at health outcomes or opinions on how either diet 'makes you feel'.  Those are valid questions but are beyond our capacity to test. We are comparing the data to age and gender-matched controls on the 'darling diet' of the nutrition world, the Blue Zones Mediterranian diet, and comparing the results to the 'average' adequacy standards set by the lab.  I would like to be able to tell my patients this information, so we are testing it ourselves.  Please let us know if you are interested in the study! 

THANKS!  Sally

[Geezy]

I’m absolutely interested and would really enjoy being a part of a study like that but I’m certainly not going to pay someone to use me in a study. That doesn’t make any sense to me.


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[SallyB]

Well, it makes sense if the clinic involved is not funded by, say, Big Pharma, and therefore has no money to spend on the trial.  We are donating all of our time and effort to make the study work, and the participant gets to know if they are nutritonally adequate on their current diet without paying any medical fees to order the tests. That is all we can offer without funding.  

[Bob]

Thank you @SallyB for providing additional information about yourself, your practice, and your prospective study. Welcome aboard!

What about testing the food itself? There is a lot of information (and granted, we consume most of it through YouTube videos) about how meat and organs are rich in vitamins and other nutrients, and even how these are more bioavailable that their counterparts found in plants. The most infamous examples being how the body has to struggle to convert beta-carotene into the usable form of Vitamin A, retinol, whereas it's already in that form in meat products. Or, how the Omega-3's from animal sources are in the forms we need, EPA and DHA, whereas Omega-3's in plants are in the form of ALA and we don't do an efficient job at converting them to a usable form?

Logic would follow that if meat and organs contain abundantly more nutrients vs plants, AND they are already in a form that the human body can easily use without any difficult conversion processes, then a meat-heavy or carnivore-centric diet is going to be very good for you.

In the meantime, you might find this video interesting. They has so many tests ordered I'm surprised they even had any blood left, lol...

 

[Geezy]

Well, it makes sense if the clinic involved is not funded by, say, Big Pharma, and therefore has no money to spend on the trial.  We are donating all of our time and effort to make the study work, and the participant gets to know if they are nutritonally adequate on their current diet without paying any medical fees to order the tests. That is all we can offer without funding.  

Oh I get that but I’ve just never heard of have to pay out of pocket to be a part of a study. Seriously, that sounds like a scam. I’m not saying it is but if I had gotten an email from some outfit I hadn’t heard of trying to solicit me to be part of a study to study me but I had to pay them for being a part of the study I would be very skeptical. It’s sounds just like something those overseas scammers come up with all the time. Yours may be legitimate and it may make sense to you because of lack of funding but it doesn’t make sense for me to be a part of it if I have to pay. I’m already a part of a study showing how carnivore has cured my Crohn’s disease and they didn’t ask for any money from me, just my medical records from my Gastroenterologist.
Like I said, I’m not accusing you of playing a scam but that’s exactly how scams sound.
I hope you get what you need for a good study and I hope it makes a difference. Good luck.


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[Bob]

I was just wondering if you looked into OwnYourLabs.com and compared their pricing with the particular labs you would like to run. That website offers extremely cheap pricing on blood work for most tests (although, Cystatin C was expensive so I went with UltaLabs for that one). OwnYourLabs.com works with LabCorp, so everyone can get their results online. These results could then be forwarded to you for compilation and analysis.