Fat Loss on a strict Carnivore Diet

[Andre]

On 2/3/2024 at 1:25 PM, Bob said:

3 weeks is nothing. Did you watch Dr. Berry's video? He says he wouldn't even call it a "weight loss stall" or "weight loss plateau" unless you've been idle for 3 months. The last 10 pounds or so are hard to get off. They don't want to give up the ghost, lol. 

I was 225 a year ago. I started low-carb/dirty-keto in late February or early March, and then switched to clean keto in April, and then started carnivore on May 12th, 2023. When I started carnivore, I was 205. By the end of July I was 193. In mid-August, after 90 days, I started deviating a little here and there. My apple tree was ripe, and I would have an occasional salad or side veggie here and there. On September 1st I was 189. On October 1st I was 184.5. On November 1st I was 178.2. And on November 12th I hit my initial goal of 175. I have had several 3 week stalls along my journey, and right now I have been on a stall since mid-November, which has been 2.5 months. Only yesterday and today have I finally seen some movement again, as I weighed in at 174 both yesterday and today.

 

I'm not religious and dogmatic about carnivore either. A proper human diet is meat and animal-based, but not necessarily strict carnivore. Some fruits and vegetables are benign, while others contain toxins that you may or may not be able to handle. Refined grains, sugars, seed oils, and processed foods which typically contain all three are best to be avoided. If you can hunt it, milk it, or pluck it from a branch or vine, you'll prosper vs eating out of a box or a wrapper.

Thanks Bob, again.

Well, I will continue as a Carnivore for at least 100 days. But after gaining some weight, I am very suspicious about the effects of the Carnivroe diet and even the very low carb diet in my case. (As someone who is a healthy individual trying to lose fat and build some muscle without feeling hungry or having to count every calorie...) I weighed 200 pounds when I started. I had roughly 20-25 pounds of fat to lose. My body recomposition has not improved since then. I lost 17 pounds in the first 6 weeks, but my body fat remains very similar (Strong evidence that I lost mostly water and maybe even some muscle mass)

3 months without losing weight seems to me to be a very clear sign of very unproductive fat loss. Perhaps Dr. KenBarry has this opinion because he actually deals with people who are 100 pounds overweight, not healthy individuals who only have 15-30 pounds to lose.

I tried contacting Carnivore's channels, but no one has a clear answer. I guess I'm just the guy who can't benefit from a Carnivore Diet. I don't know how long I will extend my experience after 100 days as a Carnivore, but I can guarantee that I won't be a Carnivore for a whole year, eating only meat and eggs so I can't lose even 15 lbs ... This is a total failure
 

 

Thank you again

 

[Andre]

On 1/31/2024 at 7:27 PM, Bob said:

It can be. A proper human diet is a low carbohydrate, meat-based diet that generally ranges from zero to 100 carbs per day. It does not necessarily have to be 100% carnivore. If you cut out processed food and stick to natural meats, dairy, fruit, and vegetables and avoid processed food, you will likely thrive. However,  staying on the carnivore or ketogenic end of this spectrum (less than 20 carbs daily) is recommended if you are not a healthy person. Cutting out the carbs and the plant toxins can help lose weight, reduce blood pressure, reverse diabetes, and eliminate certain auto-immune and chronic conditions. But if you don't suffer from any of those things then you don't necessarily have to be so strict. You can remain animal-based, and still have some variety.

As a general rule, to lose weight you will want to not eat foods that spike insulin and you will want to be in ketosis often, which is achieved by eating a moderate protein high fat diet. The last 10 pounds or so are notoriously stubborn. 

You say you hit the gym a few times a week. Are you lifting weights? Could you be gaining muscle? It sounds like you are saying you lost 17 pounds right away but now have gained a couple back. Is that correct?

Yes, Bob. I lost 17 pounds in the first 6 weeks, but mostly water. My BF went from 22 to 20%. I stalled my fat loss for a little over 3 weeks and gained 2.5 pounds in the last five days or so. I started at 200 lbs + -23BF, I'm 183 cm tall and 34 years old. I train 2 to 3 times a week to not lose muscle and help improve fat loss.

I have at least 12-15 pounds of fat to lose. I think most of the weight I lost was water and carbohydrates, as I haven't eaten carbs in 11 weeks.

Maybe the carnivore diet won't work for fat loss if you're healthy. I eat the same things, the same amounts, but I don't count calories. Maybe CICO is necessary to lose fat.

Thank you

[Bob]

6 hours ago, Andre said:

Maybe the carnivore diet won't work for fat loss if you're healthy.

This begs the question; do you really have that much weight to lose? Carnivore is a weight optimization diet. You're aiming for 15% body fat. Your body might be telling you that you have already achieved optimization. If you are going to force it to lose more, you will really have to push for it.

6 hours ago, Andre said:

I eat the same things, the same amounts, but I don't count calories.

And your body has adjusted it's metabolism to this new established pattern. Change it up. I suggested some ways in my first response to you...

https://carnivoretalk.com/topic/264-fat-loss-on-a-strict-carnivore-diet/?do=findComment&comment=1742

6 hours ago, Andre said:

Maybe CICO is necessary to lose fat.

That does work, even if it means going hungry. A carnivore diet that's moderate protein and high fat should help satiate you for longer periods of time, making it easier to eat less calories or intermittent fast.

When you are obese, just eating a proper diet melts the fat away. But as has been repeated here, and in that Dr. Berry video, that the last 10-15 pounds are the most stubborn. You do have to work it off.

Again, it could be that your body is saying this is your optimal weight, and what's going on here is that you are having a disagreement with your personal physiology. 

 

[Bob]

I came across this video just now that someone posted in another group. I haven't watched it yet but I thought it might be worth sharing with you @Andre...

 

[Bob]

Here's another one @Andre...

 

 

[Andre]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:32 PM, Bob said:

This begs the question; do you really have that much weight to lose? Carnivore is a weight optimization diet. You're aiming for 15% body fat. Your body might be telling you that you have already achieved optimization. If you are going to force it to lose more, you will really have to push for it.

And your body has adjusted it's metabolism to this new established pattern. Change it up. I suggested some ways in my first response to you...

https://carnivoretalk.com/topic/264-fat-loss-on-a-strict-carnivore-diet/?do=findComment&comment=1742

That does work, even if it means going hungry. A carnivore diet that's moderate protein and high fat should help satiate you for longer periods of time, making it easier to eat less calories or intermittent fast.

When you are obese, just eating a proper diet melts the fat away. But as has been repeated here, and in that Dr. Berry video, that the last 10-15 pounds are the most stubborn. You do have to work it off.

Again, it could be that your body is saying this is your optimal weight, and what's going on here is that you are having a disagreement with your personal physiology. 

 

I have at least 15 pounds of fat (not water or glycogen. I lsot  17 lbs but it was motly fat. My BF% did not change all that much.) to lose. When you start a Carnvore diet, you lose a lot of water, not fat. I have about 20% BF depending on how you massure body fat. Probably a little higher if you use a more effective device like a DEXA Scam. I don't think my body is saving for optimal health or body weight. This is a coping mechanism used to justify the lack of results. I will the 100 days as a Carnivore and extend another 30 days, but I will count calories and eat leaner cuts of meat even reducing my food intake. This will eventually lead to hunger. Just like any other diet. This is disappointing because I truly believed that the carnivore diet was not like any other diet. I guess Carnivore just dont work any you are healthy and just need to lose fat.

Thanks Bob

[Bob]

2 hours ago, Andre said:

I will the 100 days as a Carnivore and extend another 30 days, but I will count calories and eat leaner cuts of meat even reducing my food intake.

Good luck. When I cut out fat, dairy, and skimped on butter in favor of trying to be both zero carb and low fat, I felt worse. No energy, and lots of diarrhea. You might bounce out of ketosis due to gluconeogensis. Of course, your mileage will vary. 

2 hours ago, Andre said:

This will eventually lead to hunger.

Which means you are doing it wrong. You should eat until you are satisfied unless you are intentionally fasting.

2 hours ago, Andre said:

This is disappointing because I truly believed that the carnivore diet was not like any other diet.

Strict carnivore is just a subset of the keto diet. An animal-based diet is going to be more nutrient dense than other diets, whether it's carnivore, meat-based keto, or animal-based plus fruit and select vegetables. 

You know, there ARE other factors that can come into play here. Did you get any labs before you started? Have you had your thyroid checked? How about your sex hormones such as testosterone? Those can be out of whack and you can work your butt off trying to lose weight and will only get frustrated.

 

[Calendyr]

On 1/31/2024 at 11:04 AM, Andre said:

Thank you for responding my post.

I have been following Carnivore content for more than 6 months. I understand the lifestyle aspect, but as someone who is healthy, I would like to use the Carnivora Diet to undergo body recomposition without having to starve or count calories.
I'm halfway through week 10 as Carnivore. I've been eating the same thing since I started. My results are average (at best) and I experience practically none of the benefits that Carnivores generally experience (Energy gain, better sleep, improved digestive system, etc.)
So I'm starting to question whether the Carnivora Diet is really efficient for a healthy person. And I'm going to complete at least 100  days as a Carnivore, and I'm thinking about extending that period, but I'm not committed to being a Carnivore for the rest of my life, based on the mediocre results I've had. (I don't see Dieting as some kind of religion or Dogma, If it works great, if not....)

What would be the minimum period to have a clear idea about the efficiency of the Carnivora diet? Dr. Ken Barry speaks of 90 days minimum. But other than that I don't have a reference.
I gained weight for the first time since I started. Something isn't right. I don't know what it is, maybe I won't be able to figure it out. That's why I signed up for the forum to get other perspectives.

Thanks

About your weight gains, you mentionned you trained twice a week.  Is is possible you lost weight and gained muscle mass?  Muscles are heavier than fat, so do you feel you have the same fat level or is your body more muscular than when you started with less fat?

 

[Orweller]

On 2/11/2024 at 7:46 PM, Calendyr said:

About your weight gains, you mentionned you trained twice a week.  Is is possible you lost weight and gained muscle mass?  Muscles are heavier than fat, so do you feel you have the same fat level or is your body more muscular than when you started with less fat?

 

Exactly, body composition is the ideal metric. 

[Orweller]

On 2/11/2024 at 12:53 PM, Bob said:

Good luck. When I cut out fat, dairy, and skimped on butter in favor of trying to be both zero carb and low fat, I felt worse. No energy, and lots of diarrhea. You might bounce out of ketosis due to gluconeogensis. Of course, your mileage will vary. 

Which means you are doing it wrong. You should eat until you are satisfied unless you are intentionally fasting.

Strict carnivore is just a subset of the keto diet. An animal-based diet is going to be more nutrient dense than other diets, whether it's carnivore, meat-based keto, or animal-based plus fruit and select vegetables. 

You know, there ARE other factors that can come into play here. Did you get any labs before you started? Have you had your thyroid checked? How about your sex hormones such as testosterone? Those can be out of whack and you can work your butt off trying to lose weight and will only get frustrated.

 

Yes low test can happen when you over train or under eat, the fat is the fuel, the gas tank. Leaner meat is going to be torture. 

[Andre]

On 2/11/2024 at 9:46 PM, Calendyr said:

About your weight gains, you mentionned you trained twice a week.  Is is possible you lost weight and gained muscle mass?  Muscles are heavier than fat, so do you feel you have the same fat level or is your body more muscular than when you started with less fat?

 

No. i have been training now for more than 3 years. Now experienced lifter will increase muscle mass while losing fat

[Bob]

19 hours ago, Andre said:

Now experienced lifter will increase muscle mass while losing fat

I beg to differ. It's called body recomposition, which is often what is happening during a weight loss stall. Many of us have experienced a weight loss plateau that lasted months, and while the scale didn't budge, the waist kept shrinking and we kept moving along the notches of our belts.

If you are getting a sufficient amount of protein and nutrition, you can simultaneously put on muscle while reducing body fat. There's a balance to be had here though. If you portion control and consume too little, then it will be difficult to put on any new muscle mass.

 

[atlsrt44]

I beg to differ. It's called body recomposition, which is often what is happening during a weight loss stall. Many of us have experienced a weight loss plateau that lasted months, and while the scale didn't budge, the waist kept shrinking and we kept moving along the notches of our belts.
If you are getting a sufficient amount of protein and nutrition, you can simultaneously put on muscle while reducing body fat. There's a balance to be had here though. If you portion control and consume too little, then it will be difficult to put on any new muscle mass.
 

This. Ive had weeks where i didnt drop any weight yet pants got looser.

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[butterfly]

I think you need to eat more. Protein, specifically, if recomposition is your goal, forget about the fat for a moment and concentrate on supplying your body with enough protein. Just one thing - are you eating ground beef, by any chance? When I started carnivore, the first kind of beef I ate was ground beef because I didn't much fancy big chunks of steak, and after a couple of weeks on a pound of ground beef a day and several eggs, I felt pretty lethargic and generally lousy. I thought about giving up. So I did some reading on ground beef, and there are those who say that the grinding process not only introduces extra histamine in the processing of it, but it leaches out a significant amount of the nutrition compared to whole pieces of steak. So I switched to steak and felt a lot better within another week. I've no idea if this applies to you, but thought I'd mention it.

I would strongly suggest that you try incorporating some beef liver into your diet. It's a nutritional powerhouse and I find it almost an instant energy booster. As your palate adjusts with time, it's also delicious. No, really.

Like Bob mentioned, varying up your calories and keeping your metabolism reacting and guessing is a good strategy. Your body will always seek homeostasis and it will adapt to any regime quickly, so throwing in a fast day maybe, one very high protein day, one high fat day etc, that might possibly help you. Your English is great, by the way. Good luck!

 

[Bob]

16 hours ago, butterfly said:

So I did some reading on ground beef, and there are those who say that the grinding process not only introduces extra histamine in the processing of it

It's really interesting the things we learn through community interaction. I had never heard of this, but it makes sense. I am generally unphased by my food so it's something I wouldn't have looked into. Although, I switch up my meals, both brunch and dinner, every day for variety.

[Andre]

On 3/1/2024 at 10:12 AM, Bob said:

I beg to differ. It's called body recomposition, which is often what is happening during a weight loss stall. Many of us have experienced a weight loss plateau that lasted months, and while the scale didn't budge, the waist kept shrinking and we kept moving along the notches of our belts.

If you are getting a sufficient amount of protein and nutrition, you can simultaneously put on muscle while reducing body fat. There's a balance to be had here though. If you portion control and consume too little, then it will be difficult to put on any new muscle mass.

 

Body recomposition is not something experience lifter can undergo easily. You can lose 10 lbs of fat and gain 2 lbs of muscle but you cannot lose 10 of fat and gain 10 lbs of muscle. A Narural lifter may be able to build 15-20 lbs of muscle mass in his best year of training. I dont think you understand how hard is to build muscle mass

[Bob]

On 3/1/2024 at 8:12 AM, Bob said:

you can simultaneously put on muscle while reducing body fat.

 

1 hour ago, Andre said:

You can lose 10 lbs of fat and gain 2 lbs of muscle

Looks like we're in a agreement here.

1 hour ago, Andre said:

I dont think you understand how hard is to build muscle mass

Yes, I am well aware.

[Andre]

50 minutes ago, Bob said:

You cannot build a significant amount of muscle mass and lose fat at the same time if you are an experienced lifter training like a natural lifter. Also, this doesn't explain my weight/fat loss since my body fat is still the same.