The opposite effect of Carnivore on your lipid panel?

[Cwill]

My cholesterol in June was as follows:


I changed my diet immediately to a primary carnivore focus. I've kept my meals consistent.  2lb of 85/15 grass fed beef, 5 eggs, a tablespoon of grass fed butter and I add 1.5 ouces of extra virgin macadamia nut oil which is better than Olive Oil. I added the oil to increase my fat consumption without adding protein.  I run around 195 grams of protein, 200 grams of fat, and no carbohydrates. I do have coffee with a bit of allulose in the morning

After 3 months, I had my number checked again.. and everything became worse.

Has anyone seen this?  My CRP is  .12, insulin has been low at 2.1, a1c is 5.4. My glucose is in the low 80s.  My kidneys, liver, and electrolytes are all normal..Im at odds with what could be causing it since I literally do not eat any carbohydrates.

Edited October 11 by Cwill
added crp

[Geezy]

I have seen this in other people and it’s not common but from what I’ve read it’s not completely uncommon for our numbers to go up especially in the beginning. 
Remember that your cells are using fat for energy instead of glucose. Fat needs to be transported in the blood inside lipoproteins (because fat can't mix with water/blood). So it is only natural that your cholesterols would increase when you are fat adapted. 

I would definitely give it more time before I got too concerned about it. It may level out more after you become fully fat adapted. 

[Cwill]

Thanks for your response @Geezy. I’ve been carnivore for 108 days today. The longest I’ve seen is 90 days on fat adaptation. I went and had a second done as someone mentioned I may not have fasted long enough. This time I fasted 14 hours and the numbers are even higher.

[Geezy]

Thanks for your response [mention=79]Geezy[/mention]. I’ve been carnivore for 108 days today. The longest I’ve seen is 90 days on fat adaptation. I went and had a second done as someone mentioned I may not have fasted long enough. This time I fasted 14 hours and the numbers are even higher.

Fasting prior to a blood test should only be 8-12 hours.
I’ve made the mistake of fasting for 24 hours and it screwed up my results.


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[Cwill]

Apparently, the longer the better. Check out this.

 

[Geezy]

Interesting video.
I find it interesting that his first charts looked like his lower numbers were falling within the recommended fasting window but his final chart it seemed that they were outside that window. I can’t see the charts very well on my phone but they were still very close to the recommended fasting window.
It’s still very interesting though and definitely needs further study. I’d love to see more people trying this to see if they can correlate his findings. In fact it would be great if you could try this and report back your findings.
Of course we have to remember that he was an N of 1 and just because this worked in his body doesn’t mean it works the same for everyone.
The thing about fasting blood test is that they are not just centered around test cholesterol. There are other things being tested as well that a longer fast may affect negatively as was in my case.
I should have clarified when I said that fasting took long and I believe it was over 24 hours, messed up my numbers it wasn’t my cholesterol, those numbers are great, but it was my A1b and glucose numbers that were off.
If his test can prove significant among a greater population then it would definitely be a good idea to make a blood test for cholesterol totally separate from any other with a different fasting window.
Good video, thanks.


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[Scott F.]

Very interesting. 

I had the lipid panel in August about 90 days in on carnivore. I will have another done in November prior to my infusion and then again in December as a follow up. (Mostly the blood work is for immunoglobulin numbers but I the last couple I have asked for complete work-ups. More so for curiosity for 'where I am with carnivore' than anything. 

I will admit I was expecting and hoping for better numbers but had to realize it was only 90 days of correction after 35 years of pounding. If my numbers jumped in that 'opposite' direction it would have been more than alarming. (for me)

Great subject matter. 

Scott

[Bob]

On 10/11/2024 at 2:34 PM, Cwill said:

My kidneys, liver, and electrolytes are all normal..Im at odds with what could be causing it since I literally do not eat any carbohydrates.

Have you been actively losing weight?

Your body fat is literally solidified triglyceride. LDL is also stored in the adipose tissue. When you lose weight, all that gets released into your bloodstream. Therefore, as a general rule, it's pointless to look at your lipid profile until about 6 months after weight stabilization, as the numbers will be all over the place.

My triglycerides skyrocketed due to Chronic Kidney Disease. It can also skyrocket due to liver and thyroid issues, medications, and genetic hypertriglyceridemia. My most recent video was on my personal struggle with high triglycerides. 

[Cwill]

18 hours ago, Bob said:

Have you been actively losing weight?

Your body fat is literally solidified triglyceride. LDL is also stored in the adipose tissue. When you lose weight, all that gets released into your bloodstream. Therefore, as a general rule, it's pointless to look at your lipid profile until about 6 months after weight stabilization, as the numbers will be all over the place.

My triglycerides skyrocketed due to Chronic Kidney Disease. It can also skyrocket due to liver and thyroid issues, medications, and genetic hypertriglyceridemia. My most recent video was on my personal struggle with high triglycerides. 

I thought I responded over the weekend but apparently it didn't go through.  I did lose about 20lb from the end of June until around early September.  These labs were about 4 weeks after my weight leveled out. I did watch your video and I am appreciative it!  My kidney function is normal, your video had me go back and look at my labs though.  What I dont understand is why the fat/triglycerides are sticking around.  At this time, I am about 13ish % bodyfat so Im not really even storing it..

[Bob]

So clearly this might take some more testing/digging. Remember, that genetic hypertriglyceridemia is also a possibility, but given that yours were within the normal range before, this is not likely in your case. 

Some see an initial rise, and then it tapers off later. Dr. Ben Bikman explains this in this short video...

 

Mine was basically the long version, lol. 

Since trigs are basically energy (fat) needing to either be stored as belly fat or for your cells to open the door and let them in to use as fuel, maybe play around with your macros. If you're not fully fat adapted (which can take years per Dr. Cywes) then you may still have gluconeogenesis going on (converting protein to glucose) and your cells still favor it.

On 10/11/2024 at 2:34 PM, Cwill said:

I run around 195 grams of protein, 200 grams of fat, and no carbohydrates.

That's 1:1 gram for gram, which is 30/70 protein to fat (4 calories protein to 9 calories fat, or 4/13 protein and 9/13 fat). Together that's 2580 calories per day. 

How tall are you? What is your weight? 

You could hit the same caloric target with 130g of protein and 230g of fat, and this would give you a 20/80 ratio. 

I know some of the latest "research" says you cannot overeat protein, and that overeating protein doesn't trigger gluconeogenesis, although this was the common thinking in the past. I'm still not so sure. If I eat a couple pounds of lean chicken breast, I will gain weight, vs if I eat a couple pounds of fatty red meat, I won't. 

You could also try exercising/running to burn off the extra trigs.

 

[Cwill]

Hey Bob, what an amazing effort in your response.. over here on the sidelines I’ve been digging. It’s highly possible I have APOE4. My HDL has always been low and my cholesterol has always been high, when I went to the extra saturated fats, my lipid panel went ballistic.
 

Have you had any interactions with APOE4 carriers?  I’ve just went through a 24 hour fast in hope of burning some of the excess slowed trigs.. I’m hopeful to find out by the end of the week if I am an APOE4 carrier. In which case I have to unload the saturated fats apparently.. 

 

there is some data that suggests APOE4 carriers have high cholesterol in a protective manner as long as my CRP is low, which it’s .12. Not sure that’s legit but I was said in a research article.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/68231#content

 

looking forward to hearing back from you. 

Edited October 16 by Cwill

[Bob]

19 minutes ago, Cwill said:

there is some data that suggests APOE4 carriers have high cholesterol in a protective manner as long as my CRP is low, which it’s .12. Not sure that’s legit but I was said in a research article.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/68231#content

From the article...

"APOE4 carriers maintain higher levels of total and LDL cholesterol at low body mass indices (BMIs). These results suggest that the relationship between APOE4 and lipids may be beneficial for pathogen-driven immune responses and unlikely to increase cardiovascular risk in an active subsistence population."

This would be good news for you. 

Your LDL and Trigs go up in sync with each other. Trigs get carried on VLDL (Very Low Density Lipoprotein), where as Cholesterol gets carried in LDL (Low Desity Lipoprotein). Bascially, VLDL is both trigs and LDL. And then HDL usually has an inverse relationship with trigs. If trigs go up, HDL goes down. If HDL goes up, trigs come down. Lifting heaving things can help raise HDL. Resistance and cardio can help burn triglycerides. 

If you decide to scale back on saturated fat, maybe add more fatty fish to your diet. The Omega-3's in seafood are supposed to be good for lowering trigs too. And despite was some hardcore carnivore's might say, some [true] olive oil, avocado oil, and coconut oil is just fine, as none of those are vegetable seed oils.

[Cwill]

Hey Bob, 

 

So, my test came back as not being an APOE4. I’m a 2/3 with 2 being pretty rare. So I kept digging. I ended up running across a video of Dr. Cywes. He was noting that some people have suppressed insulin. Mine is under the min at 2.1. He said when insulin is suppressed, the body converts more protein to glucose and cholesterol can skyrocket. The resolution is to force an insulin spike BID.  The recommendation is 2 glasses of whole milk a day. I also talked with one of Dr. Bikmans staff and she too recommended it. I’ve been doing it for a few days. I’ve had non-stop diarrhea. My ATL and AST both increased which then makes sense as I’m converting protein. It all kind of makes sense but more time is needed to see. Drinking a cup of whole milk BID has stopped my diarrhea completely. I’m back to normal from a stomach perspective. I’ll retest my lipids next week to see if they are coming down. She thinks I may be a lean mass hyper responder but with having suppressed insulin, my numbers don’t match up.  She said my trigs are quite profound. She’s never seen trigs over 500 on strict carnivore and thinks I may really see improvements with the milk. Apparently I just require a bit of cards for insulin increase. The fasting insulin numbers really need to be in the 3-4 range. What a wild ride.

[Miranda]

This is fascinating, thanks for keeping us posted! How are you doing otherwise?

[Orweller]

On 10/13/2024 at 3:01 PM, Bob said:

Have you been actively losing weight?

Your body fat is literally solidified triglyceride. LDL is also stored in the adipose tissue. When you lose weight, all that gets released into your bloodstream. Therefore, as a general rule, it's pointless to look at your lipid profile until about 6 months after weight stabilization, as the numbers will be all over the place.

My triglycerides skyrocketed due to Chronic Kidney Disease. It can also skyrocket due to liver and thyroid issues, medications, and genetic hypertriglyceridemia. My most recent video was on my personal struggle with high triglycerides. 

You sir, have just won a chicken dinner. 

Absolutely pointless to worry about numbers that early. 

[Bob]

On 10/22/2024 at 8:34 PM, Cwill said:

She’s never seen trigs over 500 on strict carnivore

She hasn't met me, lol. Mine shot up to 2887 at one point.

Keep us posted on how this works out for you.