Carnivore for type 1 diabetics

[Idunno]

Thus topic is for Type 1’s (insulin dependent) 

the problem is that if a T1 has low blood sugar they will need to take some glucose tablets. The glucose tablets will pop you out of ketosis

so as an example, a T1 can go thru a week long period of pure carnivore diet and they will deal with keto fatigue for the week, but then for whatever reason the blood sugar is running low. so they are required to take glucose tabs

the second glucose tabs are consumed you’re out of ketosis 

this is problematic always being in keto flu and never being able to stay in ketosis

also if a type 1 is going to exercise they eat glucose tabs. 
Am I wrong about this?

it seems like carnivore is good for T1’s but not really because T1’s have to use glucose tabs to regulate blood sugars 

any thoughts?

[Geezy]

That’s interesting. I know very little about T1 diabetics. 
I didn’t know they used glucose tablets. 
I have a hunting partner that’s a T1 and I’ve never seen him take anything but his insulin shots. 
I can see what you are talking about would sound problematic. 
The only thing I’ve heard from T1’s who are carnivore is that they have been able to reduce their insulin shots substantially but other than that not much. 
 

[Idunno]

Well hopefully a few T1D’s come to answer

seems like a real predicament: because we definitely need glucose tablets to maintain blood sugar levels and basically 1 little glucose tablets is enough to stop ketosis

it would be a T1D eating carnivore diet would be in a nonstop keto flu ??

If so this would be a deal breaker for me. I would have to do low carb again or very low carb, with carnivore days mixed in…

[Skeptic]

Hi folks.

I always seem to be the one who reads posts with questions and says "hopefully someone that knows will chime in" but in this case, I think I can help.

SO, type 1 for the last 20 plus years.  I have fought with lows nearly as much as highs over this time.  What is worse is that no one in the medical establishment ever mentioned a word of this to me, so I was simply ignorant.
 

Several years ago, I thought that a Tandem pump with a CGM was the solution, but I was still over/under correcting for carbohydrates.  There are so many variables.  I was terrified of dying in the night from lows, so I took my drs advice and would "liberalize" my glucose levels.  I was definitely not aware of animal based eating at the time, and downed all kinds of garbage.  Carbs of course, but processed foods galore, seed oils, vegetables, fruits, coffee (hot bean water) ...the list goes on.  The SAD diet, which modern western medicine has little to no problem with, yet they will flip out if you tell them you are eating a carnivore diet.

Once I cleaned up my diet, the insulin pump/CGM combo began REALLY showing its worth.   Once you are animal based for a while, and your body gets adjusted, things get easier.  For clarity, Im talking about NO carbs, as well as being fat adapted, where you get very hard stools without purposely adding in fats in a minimum of a 1 to 1 ratio.  
Once your body re-learns how to operate on fats instead of on glucose, your body will regain its ability to make its own glucose when necessary through gluconeogenesis.
This fixes your trouble with lows, *without* the need for glucose tabs.  Trust me, I used to carry em too.  

A word of warning from my personal experience, if you eat any sugars or carbohydrates, it will kick you out of ketosis (as mentioned above) and your new found gluconeogenesis abilities will be put on hold.  This can be dangerous if you are on insulin, and are not prepared for what comes next. 
Example: If you go out for a burger with friends, for instance, and eat the burger with the bun, POOF, goodbye ketosis.  I personally would be waking up at about 2am with my sugar level in the basement (sub 50)  Ask me how I know.  This is where your doctor will come in and say "see, you NEED carbs" but I say let clearer thinking prevail.  Without the carbs from the bun, you (I) would have been fine.  No highs to deal with, and self correcting lows!  Carbs arent the solution, they are the problem.

Happy to be able to offer my two cents

*EDIT* I should also clarify that it does not take me more than 6 to 12 hours to recover back into ketosis, should I have something sugary or carby.  Im not advocating carbs and sugars, but I know we are all human, and old habits do die hard.

Edited February 23 by Skeptic

[Idunno]

I use a CGM on my arm and multiple daily injections of a long lasting and short lasting. I’ve never used a pump because I don’t want any more devices sticking on me. Tho everyone says the pump helps with A1C.

my A1C has been between 6.5-7.0 for several years and it’s hard to make a dent in that because I often relapse with carbs and with booze too. But I’m trying to push through with no cheat days.

The book I mostly follow is Dr Bernstein. He has a message board forum but I was banned, I forget why. I was also banned from a Reddit forum for carnivores, I dunno why, maybe I was too truthful.

A couple times I met in person with a T1D group and I got good vibes but also super-duper bad vibes from some people there. So I was turned off by their in person group of T1D’s. From what I gathered though, they all wore pumps and they were eating very-high carb meals together like it was no biggie, as if very-high carb diets were no problem as long as the pump is doing its job.

So I literally do not know any other T1D’s in real life and I am sociable too. One guy I know has T2D which is a much different monster, and any time I talk with him about low carb diets he has no interest in it and doesn’t want to change anything even though he has health problems from T2D.

Edited February 23 by Idunno

[Idunno]

Another thing I’ve noticed is when I eat carnivore for several days my blood sugar profile smooths out. It will go from generally 145 average down to a more normalized state of about 100 average. Noticeably more balanced and in range

but once it stabilizes like that it also triggers carb cravings. And booze cravings. Another thing I notice when it stabilizes I get fatigued and get much better rest and sleep is deepened. I think during this phase when I sleep it releases a lot of inflammation or something, I’m unsure what is happening.

But eventually I get carb cravings and it only takes 1 meal (like double cheeseburgers and Cajun fries as an example) when I eat that (or another example is a whole pizza) when I eat that my blood sugar is straight up wrecked for a week afterwards.

so there is a cycle:

Pig out on pizza and burgers

eat no carbs for a week 

my blood sugar begins to stabilize 

my sleep gets really heavy

I get bad carb cravings 

I pig out on burgers and fries again

then drink booze to calm my nerves

back to no carb diet for a week

and this cycle keeps repeating.

 

Edited February 23 by Idunno

[Skeptic]

The struggle is definitely real.  Cravings can be merciless, and I am no exception.  I get the same cravings and they are no joke.  Quitting carbs was easy for me compared to quitting sugar.  Here's my take:  I would suggest you are in the midst of "the worst of both worlds"

By that I mean you can see the vast improvement from carnivore on your numbers, but feel like you're missing "the good old days" on carbs and booze.  The flip side is the guilt trip once you've gone off the wagon, not to mention feeling awful the next week. 

I would suggest a varied approach, rather than continuing the current cycle, but it's up to you of course.  I can say definitively, for me at least, that my cravings went away 90 % by the third week.  Your mileage may vary.

All that said, if you're getting A1C numbers between 6.5 and 7 with the current status quo, that's impressive.  

[Idunno]

The past month or so has been cold weather so I have been unable to be outside exercising. Even if I jump rope or jog for 5 minutes each day it makes a big difference on blood glucose levels 

—

but I am confused about how you mention your aim is gluconeogensis whereas everyone else here says their goal is Ketosis. I think these are separate states?

I’ve also done some water fastening. I did 1 day fasts then 3 days then one time I made it to 7 days of water and salt only. What I experienced was literally normalized blood sugars hovering around 86-90 for about 4/7 of the days. But water fasting required adjustments to my long lasting 

So on day 1 I’d take 18 units

day 2 I’d take 16 units

day 3 I’d take 13 units

day 4 I’d only need 11 units and maybe an additional 1 unit if my blood glucose was higher than normalized areas

It took me a few tries to make it to 7 days because if I took even 1/2 too many units of insulin my blood sugar would be below 85 so I would need to take a glucose tab and that would end the fasting period

but they say in Chinese medical theory that 7 days in an important time marker for fasting. By 7 days significant restoration occurs, and for a Type 1 Diabetic it is highly important to get that extra restoration because we are always battling with health 

but the 7 day fast reduced my long acting requirement literally in half. Plus I did not need to divide doses of long lasting (morning and night shots). The water fasting make a huge difference and I think most Type 1’s do not fast that long as 7 days. It’s an important experiment that is not discussed because most people flip their lids about water fasting like it’s the hugest danger

Edited February 24 by Idunno

[Skeptic]

Wow.  Sounds like you are getting things down to a science, so to speak.   The fasting is superb, and will do SO much good.  I used to be on the long and short acting insulin myself, so what you are saying is very familiar to me.   I have heard that dry fasting is far superior to water fasting, but that is not said to detract in any way from a 7 day fast.  Most excellent!!

As for the gluconeogenesis, I should have specified.  Gluconeogenesis and ketosis are states that can occur simultaneously.  Gluconeogenesis is the body's way of producing its own glucose via the breakdown of triglycerides, in precise amounts.  If you research about this, most articles will say that it typically occurs when the body is in a fasted state, but it can also be when you do not eat carbohydrates and sugars and thus have no excess glucose in your system that is readily available.

To be absolutely fair, I dont know for certain if what I experience is technically gluconeogenesis, or glycogenolysis (where liver glycogen is broken down to produce small amounts of needed glucose) but the effect is noticeable in my physiology as long as I do not consume carbohydrates or sugars to knock me out of ketosis.

When in ketosis (fasting or not, it doesnt seem to matter) I can go out in the morning and go to work, and watch my blood sugars via the CGM graph.  I will stay pretty level until I hit the point where any basil insulin delivery from the pump is no longer needed, at which time the pump will suspend delivery.  I will say that this may be an advantage of the pump as opposed to long acting injections, as they are not something you can "take back" once administered of course.  Anyway, after this, my numbers will trend down toward the 70s or even mid high 60s, before boosting back up gently, no glucose tabs required!  I can continue this way all day if I like, never dropping "low"  I will often break for lunch if hungry, but as long as I stay within the limits of the ketogenic diet, and stay in ketosis, once I get past the initial small rise (from processing the protein from lunch) its back to business as usual and my numbers will stay in the 90s until the day is done.

This opens up all new windows for work, fasting, exercise, you name it.
 

Edited February 24 by Skeptic

[Idunno]

So with the pump your A1C is around 5.0% ? That’s really spectacular 

but I don’t want to have more devices stuck to my skin. I don’t want any tubes dangling from my skin. I don’t want to be hooked up to more devices. 
 

honestly I’d rather have struggles with battling blood sugars with the possibility of health issues arising

i hate having to be so closely connected to a smartphone with devices and doctors monitoring me

but yeah that must be a ton easier plus not having to eat candies for lows

[Skeptic]

Even small rises in glucose readings all add up to an A1C a bit higher than 5 of course.  Some day I may hit 5, and its a great goal!  From digesting proteins in beef to the small amount of sugars present in milk and cheese, I am currently at 6.1 but I know I can go lower.  The way I figure, I would rather have one tiny tube now, than several much larger tubes later in life.  
I use a Tandem pump, which uses a constant feedback Dexcom CGM, so I can see a real time graph of where I have been over the last 3, 6, 12, or 24 hours.  Tandem DOES has the option to be constantly linked via a smartphone, but I personally decline that option as I dont prefer to be that connected either.  Back when my numbers used to trend much higher, I had rejected the idea of a pump and CGM because I didnt want anyone to see when I would "cheat" and eat sugars and pig out on carbs, but a true A1C pretty much tells the story anyway.  At even a 7 or below, you have to be close in your control, so I figure there is no longer anything for me to hide.
You definitely have to have the "want" to, but it is always the choice of the individual.   Just sharing what has worked for me, in case anyone finds value in it.