Help me choose

[Mikemike]

Ive been reading and watching youtube videos on diets for optimal health and the more i research the more im confused...im sure a lot of people can relate...i have issues with the ticker and im trying to turn things around.  Ive been looking at a lot of vegan, mediterranean, keto and carnivore.   Was leaning towards trying vegan or mediteranian for a couple of months but started feeling weak and weird...been trying to be holistic but really like meat.  Doc says no red meat..i dont believe him from all of my research.  Started eating more beef and started feeling a bit better.  I have a few questions becuase now im more confused.  Can any experienced please chime in.  Im starting to think the pesticides in fruits and veggies are more for us than pests.  Maybe the sugars are a bit much also but idk.  But what about the nutrients???im just really sceptical that humans are carnivors becuase of our teeth mostly, theyre so similar to coes and deer, primates which mostly eat fruits,veg grains.  Can anybody make this make sense?  I fast 16 - 18 hrs normally fyi and exercise regularly and trying to curb my drinking prob honestly...im human but looking for motivation.  

1.  What about all of the healing properties in fruits and veggies.  Lies?  

2.  Herbs and spices?  Becuase they're mostly from fruits and veggies?  Lies?  So herbalism is a scam?

3.  Anybody here actually heal conditions on carnivore?  

4. Anybody treating heart issues with carnivore?  Results?  

5.  Looking at some posts was very discouraging.  People eating bacon, waffles, sausages, lots of processed foods.  How is that ok?  Why go through the trouble to follow such a rigid diet and then eat junk regularly?  What am i missing becuase i go to a diner and have french toast, eggs and bacon and was counting that as a bad meal day.  Does carnivore really mean just have meat with your meal?  Becuase ive been doing that forever and honestly ran into some issues.  Please make me understand.

[Bob]

3 hours ago, Mikemike said:

Was leaning towards trying vegan or mediteranian for a couple of months but started feeling weak and weird... Started eating more beef and started feeling a bit better. Doc says no red meat..i dont believe him from all of my research.

And now in addition to your research, you have your own personal N=1 experiment. Experience is showing you that you feel better with meat in your diet.

3 hours ago, Mikemike said:

im just really sceptical that humans are carnivors becuase of our teeth mostly, theyre so similar to coes and deer, primates which mostly eat fruits,veg grains. 

It's not as black and white as carnivore vs herbivore. Mainstream science would categorize us as an omnivore (eater of everything), but we believe we should be considered "facultative carnivores" - those with a preference towards meat but can also eat non-animal food in addition to animal food. A dog is an example of facultative carnivore - they prefer prey, but will eat some plants as well.

Humans are primates, and so we have features in common, such as our teeth. While most primates eat plants, there are some that will kill and eat meat as well. Since we don't have teeth and claws, humans used their brains to hunt in packs and forge weapons. Our lack of hair and ability to sweat to dissipate body heat allowed us to pursue prey until the prey were overheated and exhausted.

3 hours ago, Mikemike said:

Can anybody make this make sense?  .....im human but looking for motivation.

From a scientific standpoint, all the essential nutrients your body needs can be found in a carnivore diet, AND in higher quantities, AND in more bioavailable forms than in plants. When you eat a carnivore diet, you eliminate anti-nutrients found in vegetables, oxylates, lectins, gluten, mold, processed food chemicals, and more. It's the purest form of eating which is why literally everyone will feel so much better. 

3 hours ago, Mikemike said:

1.  What about all of the healing properties in fruits and veggies.  Lies?
2.  Herbs and spices?  Becuase they're mostly from fruits and veggies?  Lies?  So herbalism is a scam?

Not lies, per se. But it's your body that heals itself when given what it needs, and most of that is obtained in it's purest form in animal products. You can derive some nutrition from certain fruits and certain fruitages of vegetables, but they are in much lower doses, in a state that need converted to a form our body can use, and you are competing with anti-nutrients and plant toxins. Plants do have medicinal value. Many drugs today come from plants.

9 hours ago, Mikemike said:

3.  Anybody here actually heal conditions on carnivore?  

I have reversed prediabetes, ulcerative colitis, hypertension. Those are my big three. I no longer get skin tags, my gums stopped bleeding, and I don't fall asleep at the wheel anymore (literally). I used to have bloating and gas that could even make a skunk run and hide, and now I never pass gas at all.  

9 hours ago, Mikemike said:

4. Anybody treating heart issues with carnivore?  Results?  

@Geezy

9 hours ago, Mikemike said:

5.  Looking at some posts was very discouraging.  People eating bacon, waffles, sausages, lots of processed foods.  How is that ok?  Why go through the trouble to follow such a rigid diet and then eat junk regularly?  What am i missing becuase i go to a diner and have french toast, eggs and bacon and was counting that as a bad meal day.  Does carnivore really mean just have meat with your meal?  Becuase ive been doing that forever and honestly ran into some issues.  Please make me understand.

It's not ok. Junk is junk. Everyone should abstain from the processed foods as well as the unholy trinity of grains, refined sugar, and seed oils. Some members here just haven't brought themselves to commit to a proper human diet yet. I've seen them post about English muffins and rice too. But they registered so there must be some interest.

I endorse a Carnivore-centric, Meat-based diet for everyone, which I personally define as being one of the following 4 tiers. Which tier is best for you depends on your current metabolic health...

4. Low Carb, Animal-Based, 100g of carbs or less per day, may include fruit.
3. Keto, 25 carbs or less per day, non-starchy veg, but nix the fruit, save for maybe some berries.
2. Ketovore, less than 10 carbs per day. Mostly carnivore, very minimal or very occasional veg.
1. Carnivore, just animal products and the trace carbs that might be in them.*

* - some individuals will still drink coffee or use spices. 

The more weight you have to lose, or the most healing that needs to be done, then the closer to #1 you want to move. I usually recommend starting at the top with #4 and spending 2 weeks in each tier as you work your way to pure carnivore. This can help you avoid and withdrawals and adaptation issues from making extreme, rapid changes. The Keto Flu doesn't have to be a thing.

Hope this helps! And welcome aboard!

[Geezy]

Ok, Bob has tagged me to step up on the heart issue but first I just want to say that Bob is spot on.
I’d just add that carnivore is the proper human diet. There are absolutely no carbs that are essential to human health or life. Fat and animal protein is all we need to be healthy.
Some processed meats are not bad for you or junk. The key is in the ingredient labels. It just must be clean of all sugars and sweeteners, grain fillers, soy and all plant matter. It’s hard to find but it’s out there. I make much of my own so I keep it fairly clean.
If you’ve seen any of my posts about waffles you’ll see they are Chaffles which are all carnivore. Recipe in the recipe forum.
Now to the heart.
What is your heart issue?
I have Paroxysmal Atrial Fibrillation.
I’ve been carnivore for 334 days now and in that time it’s been over a year now since my last AFib attack. That is significant since when I have one it’s bad and I end up I ICU for a few days.
My cardiologist is extremely please with my diet and what it’s done for me. In losing 55 pounds and reducing the inflammation in my body my heart flutters have reduced from a stop and let me catch my breath six or seven times a day to something so mild I have to wonder if I actually felt something and this only a couple of times a week. I was take my completely off of one medication (Metropol) because it was taking my blood pressure down so far naturally that the medication was taking in down way too low artificially.
My BP yesterday was 112/ 62.
As of my last visit with my cardiologist two weeks ago he has now cut my o the medication (Flecanide) in half and if I continue doing so well he may take me completely off of it in six months or so.
So yes sir, carnivore can help with heart issues.
I also just had another sleep study to see if carnivore had help me there and unfortunately my sleep apnea is not cured but I have gone from a ranking of moderately severe (22) down to mild (11).
This a list of my other healings and improvements.

Inflammation way down.
Hands don’t hurt. Can make a fist again.
Knees don’t hurt.
Right hip doesn’t hurt.
Left hip (prosthetic) is better.
Back is 80-90% pain free.
Shoulders are 90% pain free.
IBS is gone.
Bowel inflammation is gone.
Crohns is gone.
Energy is better. LI’m
Attitude is better.
Floaters in eyes are less noticeable.
Eye watering gone
Running nose reduced 90%.
Walking two- three miles every other day without support.
Exercising with resistance bands every other day.
Long rides on my motorcycle again.
Light sensitivity is greatly diminished. Rarely use sunglasses.
Dandruff is healed.
I can clip my toenails again.
Sleep apnea is much better and may be cured.
Elimination of one heart med.
AFib much better
Hunger is now “Keto Hunger).
No carb addiction, no temptation.
So yes, carnivore really does heal.
I will never eat any other way again.
I don’t eat carnivore, I am carnivore.

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[Mikemike]

Thanks for welcoming me guys and for taking the time to read and respond to my post and im glad you're making progress geezy.  I currently have heart failure and the cardiologists have been telling me to stay far away from red meat from the beginning whichbwas about 5 years ago.  Had a low injection fracture and made no progress with all the meds ive been prescribed.  I stopped with the red meat except on occasions when i was diagnosed and stopped the fast food for the most part but was still eating some processed foods mostly becuase i was uneducated on diet.  Since 6 months ago i made some progress, im guessing becuase i started a modified keto type diet and was fasting for 17/18 hrs normally and really cut the processed foods mostly except for maybe boiled potates or whole grain pastas once or twice a week.  But all of a sudden was feeling lots of muscle weakness and tired often and thinking it was all of the fruit smoothies and veggies i was eating.  Im thinking my progress may have had something to do with the lack of processed food i was digesting. Eating steak gave me my energy back almost instantly even though the doc says avoid it like the plague unkess its occasional and lean beef,  so im hoping i dont do any damage with my experimenting.  So here i am researching carnivore and becomimg a member to this helpful forum.   Thanks again for responding and good health onto you guys.

Edited April 8 by Mikemike
Typo

[Orweller]

It's all about breaking barriers which have been shaped by lies and deception. You realize you are on your own. That even your doctor may not know what he is talking about. The LDL cholesterol stuff, fiber, etc. Unfortunately, we are on our own. 

I've had a lot of inflammation disappear overnight. But I do also believe, there are some great vegetables and fruits out there that are anti-inflammatory, cancer fighting super foods. The main thing is, I believe, really remaining in keto, for one. Eat as much animal based food as you can. But if you feel like you wants a little bit of carrots (good for the kidneys) or broccoli (good for the brain), then do so. Just do so in smaller amounts, and you may find you get the benefits, without the oxalates, toxins, and carb overload. 

I was full on carnivore for about 60 to 90 days. But have since then introduced some plant based foods as well. I'd say I am on a carnivore based, anti-inflammation diet. 95% of what I eat is still animal based food. Probably even more. 

No sugar, no trans fats, no seed oils, no processed foods, I don't see how one could go wrong with this approach? Eliminate, adapt, and adopt. Make it your own diet, use all the good stuff. 

[Geezy]

Mike Mike, your doctor is ignorant, plain and simple. My primary care is the same way but fortunately my cardiologist is not. He’s very open to what I’m doing and he is encouraged by my results.
The red meat and fat cause cardiovascular disease is a total myth. There is not one shred of evidence that proves red meat causes anything except better health and mortality.
And as previously listed, getting rid of all sugars, grains, seeds, seed oils and highly processed foods will in and of itself do wonders for your health.
Me personally I won’t eat vegetables because the provide no bioavailable nutrients for my body. They are just a carbohydrate and there are no essential carbs that the body needs.


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[Mikemike]

Thanks orweller,  i say the same thing all the time..were on our own.  Have no faith in doctors these days.  And not to sound like a conspiracy theorist but i think they know what were supposed to eat for optimum health and keep that info out of our hands becuase sick people keep the economy going strong. Not to say that the doctors are evil but they are following governing mandates to stay in compliance to keep their licenses....ive realized theyre not skilled at healing people, theyre just following orders.  Choosing a nutritional dicipline seems like choosing a religion these days,  carnivore/keto/vegan ect...all have people selling them so well with all the science behind them in their reasoning and logic and each sounding solid so i guess we have to choose the one that sounds best and run with it since we dont have our own labs lol.  Glad you mentioned some balance though becuase there seems to be a litnof nutrients you can only get from plants and fruit that help address some issues.  I do thow that the steak and cutting my morning spinach smoothies has given me my energy back. Hoping my lab work dosent say otherwise.

[Mikemike]

Hey again geezy...agreed on doctor ignorance.  My cardiologist is a director for 20 years in a top hospital in ny and he never bothered to ask me about my diet nor exercise habits.  Glad you have a good one.  I have read somewhere that there is i legitimate findings that suggest red meat or saturated fats are bad.  However i haven probably a dumb queation...are nuts considered seeds as well?  Are those bad...also all grains including chia seeds and flax seeds?  I was always curious that.

[Orweller]

6 hours ago, Mikemike said:

Thanks orweller,  i say the same thing all the time..were on our own.  Have no faith in doctors these days.  And not to sound like a conspiracy theorist but i think they know what were supposed to eat for optimum health and keep that info out of our hands becuase sick people keep the economy going strong. Not to say that the doctors are evil but they are following governing mandates to stay in compliance to keep their licenses....ive realized theyre not skilled at healing people, theyre just following orders.  Choosing a nutritional dicipline seems like choosing a religion these days,  carnivore/keto/vegan ect...all have people selling them so well with all the science behind them in their reasoning and logic and each sounding solid so i guess we have to choose the one that sounds best and run with it since we dont have our own labs lol.  Glad you mentioned some balance though becuase there seems to be a litnof nutrients you can only get from plants and fruit that help address some issues.  I do thow that the steak and cutting my morning spinach smoothies has given me my energy back. Hoping my lab work dosent say otherwise.

It's not a conspiracy. At least, not anymore. There's plenty of evidence and observations that most doctors do not have your health at their number one priority. Neither do dentists. It has become a money making industry, and yes, they are evil. Simple as that. Read the book Metabolical by Robert Lustig. This you will not regret. 

And yes, do not let your diet become your religion. A dogmatic approach, or striving for perfection will have you fail. Do what works for you. 

Edited April 9 by Orweller

[Orweller]

6 hours ago, Mikemike said:

Hey again geezy...agreed on doctor ignorance.  My cardiologist is a director for 20 years in a top hospital in ny and he never bothered to ask me about my diet nor exercise habits.  Glad you have a good one.  I have read somewhere that there is i legitimate findings that suggest red meat or saturated fats are bad.  However i haven probably a dumb queation...are nuts considered seeds as well?  Are those bad...also all grains including chia seeds and flax seeds?  I was always curious that.

Nuts are somewhat of a crutch. Yes, high in fat, and protein (somewhat), but also full of starches (inflammatory). They just can't beat eggs (pun intended). If any nuts, almonds, just a handful. It's so easy to overdo nuts, and it becomes a snack, and a comfort food. Then consider the ingredients when you talk about roasted, salted, etc. 

[Bob]

Another good book worth reading is "The Big Fat Surprise" by Nina Teicholz. It details the history of how certain individuals ignored the science and used their personal ideals to shape the governments current food recommendations. People were generally healthy, and diabetes, obesity, and heart disease were virtually unheard of until well into the 1900's after the invention of processed foods. As these diseases began to rise, scientists began looking for the cause, and lobbyists from Big Food companies influenced them to blame saturated fat and cholestero from meat and butter - foods we had been eating without issues since for thousands of years.

Generally speaking. Your body runs best on fat and ketones. I've heard even the heart performs better when you are fat adapted and burning ketones for energy. You can also run on carbohydrate for survival. But if you depend solely on carbohydrate you will begin to fall apart after a couple years due to nutritional deficiencies. A diet of meat and organs will not have these deficiencies. So which one sounds optimal?

Most vegetables (roots, stems, leaves, and seeds) and nuts (most of which are seeds) contain toxins. Some of us can handle these. Some of us cannot. Some of us think we can but they are actually causing cumulative damage that doesn't manifest itself for until years or decades later. I can technically eat anything. Nothing upsets my stomach, but when I hit my 40's I started to fall apart. I've reversed most of my ailments in the last 10 months by eating a carnivore-centric diet. 

At a minimum, increase your meat intake and remove processed foods as well as grains, added sugar, and vegetable seed oils. This would still allow for fruit and vegetables that are actually fruits. Most people will fair well by eating these whole foods alone.

Think of it this way, if you can hunt it, milk it, or pluck it off a vine or branch and consume it without having to cook it, then you can eat it (this rules out nuts and legumes as they will kill you or make you very sick if you eat them raw). Sugars and grains are grasses. We are not designed to eat grass.

The closer to all-natural, whole-foods you can get, the better you will feel, and for many carnivore makes them feel the best.

[Geezy]

Hey again geezy...agreed on doctor ignorance.  My cardiologist is a director for 20 years in a top hospital in ny and he never bothered to ask me about my diet nor exercise habits.  Glad you have a good one.  I have read somewhere that there is i legitimate findings that suggest red meat or saturated fats are bad.  However i haven probably a dumb queation...are nuts considered seeds as well?  Are those bad...also all grains including chia seeds and flax seeds?  I was always curious that.

All of the studies that show that bred meat and saturated fats are bad are agenda driven, cherry picked and funded by the agricultural lobby or big pharma.
There is not and has never been any definitive study to prove that red fatty meat is detrimental to our health. If it was we would have died out as a species a long time ago.

While I do believe there are dumb questions, yours is not one of them.
Many people don’t understand what constitutes a seed or grain so this is a very good question.
A seed is anything that a plant uses to propagate its species so yes, a nut is a seed, just like a grain is a seed or a legume is a seed or a bean is a seed.
Yes, seeds are not good for you. Plants do not want you to eat their babies (seeds) because that is how they ensure the survival of their species. So there are toxins in them that are designed by nature to make us ill to try to ward us off. Some of those toxins in certain seeds will kill you quick and others just poison you over time. One of the reasons we have so many inflammatory bowel issues and autoimmune diseases is because of the toxins in seeds. Then there are the pesticides that are used on them as they are growing. Those pesticides cannot be cleaned off or neutralized so you are getting poisoned by those also.
Seeds of any kind provide no nutritional value that is essential to human life. But fatty meat does.


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[Mikemike]

Thanks for the book recommendation orweller .i know robert lustig..i watched a 4 hr video of his 2 weeks ago and had the book in my cart and i will purchase that today and the big fat surprise...thanks for that bob.  Thank you as well geezy for clearing up the nuts and seeds.  I swear all of these misleading misdirecting information out there should be a crime.  Ive heard reports of studies being paid off to change the findings in benefit of some food industries.  Glad i found this forum and met you guys.  Besides my heart and low energy giving me trouble which i have to say ive been feeling better since dropping all the fruits and veggies...i also have been driving for a living and had to stop for months becuase i went temporarily blind for a fee seconds while on the highway...my vision came back after a few minutes.  But happened a few more times...ive always felt this strain in my eyes like it was going to happen again.  So i stopped driving for a while.  Eye doctor and cardiologist says my eyes look healthy and had nothing to do with my heart.  The only thing that made me feel better was recently i stopped all the fruit and veggie smoothies i was having in the mornings and i stopped feeling light headed, faint,more energised.  So by trial and error i know it was that but im not sure whether it was due to the fruit and veggies themselves or the pesticides which ive read that if you sanitize them there is still about 90% still present and that you can actually blend the actual fruit and use them as a pesticide. So do you guys use olive oil or advocado oil?  They are technically seed oils correct?  Or do you guys use only butter and tallows?  Thanks again guys.

[Bob]

18 hours ago, Mikemike said:

i also have been driving for a living and had to stop for months becuase i went temporarily blind for a fee seconds while on the highway...my vision came back after a few minutes.  But happened a few more times...ive always felt this strain in my eyes like it was going to happen again.  So i stopped driving for a while.  Eye doctor and cardiologist says my eyes look healthy and had nothing to do with my heart.

There's probably half a dozen things or more that could have caused that - inflammation, athlerosclerosis, high blood pressure, high blood sugar, temporary blood clot blocking the flow of blood to the eye, migraine, stroke, etc. Not a direct cause of the food you eat, but another issue or issues caused by years of eating sub-optimal food. 

18 hours ago, Mikemike said:

So do you guys use olive oil or advocado oil?  They are technically seed oils correct?  Or do you guys use only butter and tallows?

Actually they are not seed oils. Olives, avocados, and coconuts are fruits and the oils from all three could be made at home using the flesh and pulp of the fruit. These oils are high in saturated fat and have been used by humans for thousands upon thousands of years and are safe for consumption. I still use these oils on occasion myself, although I mostly use butter, tallow, and ghee.

Seed oils are a post 1900 invention as a result of the industrial revolution, made from the crushed seeds of various plants - safflower, sunflower, soybeans, grapeseeds, etc. And remember what @Geezy said about seeds, not to mention that the chemical processes these have to go through to become oils that aren't cloudy, gross looking, and smelling rank is pretty scary.

[LesW]

On 4/8/2024 at 6:42 PM, Orweller said:

Eliminate, adapt, and adopt. Make it your own diet, use all the good stuff.

Great support and practical suggestions from Bob, Geoff, and Orweller. ‍

I was just reading some quotes this week—by the incomparable Bruce Lee. 

He said, “Research your own experience. Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is essentially your own.”

I’ll just add my two cents about herbalism. I’ve always believed herbs were medicinal and useful, but my perspective has evolved. In the past, my attitude was: herbs will not harm because they are natural, and so I overused them.

Today I think herbs can be harmful, and they should only be used to address a specific imbalance/dysfunction in the body, and ideally it should be temporary. Dogs and cats instinctively chew on certain plants when they are ill, but not when they are healthy.

Herbs are medicinal plants and not food. In very difficult cases, longer term use of herbs might be beneficial, but I think it’s important to take breaks, so the body isn’t continually ingesting these “medicines.” And if the body is healthy, the body doesn’t need herbs. That’s my current opinion, but I encourage everyone to develop their own insights through their own experience.

[Geezy]

On 4/9/2024 at 12:49 PM, Mikemike said:

So do you guys use olive oil or advocado oil?  They are technically seed oils correct?  Or do you guys use only butter and tallows?

As Bob already stated those are fruit oils and are no where near as bad as seed oils. Seed oils are a slow poison whereas fruit oils are a food. 
Be aware that not all olive oil is alike. If it’s make olive oil but not extra virgin then it’s probably cut with canola oil which of course is a seed oil. Even extra virgin olive oil can’t always be trusted. There have been lawsuits brought against some of the bigger olive oil companies that ship to the US for misrepresentation of their oils because of cutting it with canola oil. Buyer beware. 

Now, that doesn’t mean they are the best for you. They are less bad than seed oils but not as good as animal fats so take that into consideration. 
I have some avocado oil that I use to season my cast iron that I don’t use regularly and I will use it for making mayonnaise. 
I put MCT oil (derived from coconut oil) in my tea every morning as part of my bulletproof tea. It helps to stimulate ketones in the body. 
So, they can be a part of your diet but for cooking you really should stick with animal fats. 

[Geezy]

1 hour ago, LesW said:

Great support and practical suggestions from Bob, Geoff, and Orweller. ‍

I was just reading some quotes this week—by the incomparable Bruce Lee. 

He said, “Research your own experience. Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is essentially your own.”

I’ll just add my two cents about herbalism. I’ve always believed herbs were medicinal and useful, but my perspective has evolved. In the past, my attitude was: herbs will not harm because they are natural, and so I overused them.

Today I think herbs can be harmful, and they should only be used to address a specific imbalance/dysfunction in the body, and ideally it should be temporary. Dogs and cats instinctively chew on certain plants when they are ill, but not when they are healthy.

Herbs are medicinal plants and not food. In very difficult cases, longer term use of herbs might be beneficial, but I think it’s important to take breaks, so the body isn’t continually ingesting these “medicines.” And if the body is healthy, the body doesn’t need herbs. That’s my current opinion, but I encourage everyone to develop their own insights through their own experience.

Great wisdom in what you say here. 
I am going to save the Bruce Lee quote. It is perfectly fitting for how everyone needs to look at how carnivore in their lives. 
I too am on board with you on herbs or some plants in general. I do believe that they can have their medicinal properties and uses but need to be used sparingly and for a specific purpose. 

Edited April 11 by Geezy

[Orweller]

11 hours ago, LesW said:

Great support and practical suggestions from Bob, Geoff, and Orweller. ‍

I was just reading some quotes this week—by the incomparable Bruce Lee. 

He said, “Research your own experience. Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is essentially your own.”

I’ll just add my two cents about herbalism. I’ve always believed herbs were medicinal and useful, but my perspective has evolved. In the past, my attitude was: herbs will not harm because they are natural, and so I overused them.

Today I think herbs can be harmful, and they should only be used to address a specific imbalance/dysfunction in the body, and ideally it should be temporary. Dogs and cats instinctively chew on certain plants when they are ill, but not when they are healthy.

Herbs are medicinal plants and not food. In very difficult cases, longer term use of herbs might be beneficial, but I think it’s important to take breaks, so the body isn’t continually ingesting these “medicines.” And if the body is healthy, the body doesn’t need herbs. That’s my current opinion, but I encourage everyone to develop their own insights through their own experience.

That Bruce Lee quote was the inspiration for me. It's a martial arts mindset that since has taken off. But back then, martial arts was also much like religion, dogmatic. You simply could not mix martial arts. 

As for fruits and herbs, vegetables, use them as you need them, yes. But the time to have bowls of greens and fruits is over for me. Less is more when it comes to that. 

[Mikemike]

Hey lesw great quote.  Yes bob geezy and orweller have helped me a great deal on some carnivore fundamentals.  Ive purchased the big fat surprise and im halway through with it..interesting stuff.  Our diets seem to be more concerned with politics rather than truth.  I also purchased metabolic which ive been looking at for some time and will read that one next.  Ive listend to a lot of robert lustig though .  And thanks for the tip...herbs for purpose not food.