New to carni and struggling to get the balance right between protein and fat, advice please 🙏

Joolz · April 12

Three weeks in and I’ve just noticed an itchy red rash on my neck. Having done some digging this evening, think I may be having too much protein and not enough fat.

id be very grateful for advice on how to make sure I’m getting sufficient fat, but not overdose on protein. I read that a woman should only eat 50g max protein per day, but I’ve been eating much much more than this, and now I’m panicking, as too much protein can be fatal!

I weigh 64kgs, 60 years old and fairly fit. I eat four eggs and bacon for breakfast, often meatballs and a cold chopped up steak for lunch, then another steak for dinner. I think I know the answer to the question Am I eating too much protein, but I don’t know how to eat enough to feel full, but cutting down on the meat.

Any advice from experienced carpi’s will be very much appreciated, thank you

Bob · April 13

18 hours ago, Joolz said:

Three weeks in and I’ve just noticed an itchy red rash on my neck.

What was your diet like before starting your carnivore/carnivore-centric diet? Did you switch from the standard American diet to carnivore overnight?

Sounds like you are experiencing prurigo pigmentosa, which is the scientific name for this rash which basically just means "itchy skin".

18 hours ago, Joolz said:

Having done some digging this evening, think I may be having too much protein and not enough fat.

I would agree that this is a good place to start. Although it doesn't sound like you are eating too much protein. But it could certainly be that you are not getting enough fat. How do you have your eggs? How do you cook that steak? Are you sure there aren't carbs in the meatballs (a typical meatball recipe does call for breadcrumbs)?

64kgs is 141 pounds. Typically, you want to eat 0.8 to 1g of protein per pound, unless you are trying to build muscle at the gym and then you could increase that to 1.2g or more. If you are currently at your goal weight, that would be 112-140g per day (about 560 calories). You want at least a 1:1 ratio of protein to fat, which means if you eat 140g of protein per day, you also want to eat 140g of fat per day (1260 calories). This works out to be 70% calories from fat and 30% calories from protein. Some people like to strive for even higher fat:protein ratios.

If you have been skimping on the fat, your body, being used to running on glucose, might work hard to break down that protein and convert it to glucose. The by-products from protein breakdown accumulate in your blood and give you the rash. By bumping up the fat intake, you will teach your body to become fat adapted -> when it learns to have a preference for fat and ketones over that of sugar and carbs. But this adaptation takes time, and it takes generous consumption of fat.

Other possibilities that come to mind is an intolerance towards the eggs or a histamine intolerance towards the beef, but if you have ate these things all your life anyway this is probably not the case. I think you are on the right track.

ImCharlieBruh · April 13

the way I found out how much fat I needed was to keep eating it untill I had diarrhea which was nice because I was constipated. backed off a little on the fat and bam.

I've never heard of anyone dying from too much protein usually your body eliminates this through the kidneys and urine. I skimmed your post apologies if you mentioned how long you've been on. Could just be transition id try sticking with beef only cut eggs and dairy out see how you feel add in things once you get a baseline. Kinda like playing darts blindfolded in terms on inflammation markers and histamine triggers. Highly unlikely the beef is causing it

only way to square it up to see what's causing it is to eliminate everything else.

Geezy · April 13

Bob is spot on from the technical side. Now I’ll give it to you from the simple side.
Cook everything in animal fat. Try to eat only fatty meats and don’t shy away from eating the fat. Use the fat rendering from the cooked meat as a sauce over your meat. If the meat you’re eating is lean, such as chicken, pork, venison, beef with no fat like a fillet or hamburger with all the fat cooked out of it then slather it in butter. Buttery chicken is tasty. For that matter, everything tastes better with butter.
Do you drink coffee or tea? If so you could do like I do and make it bullet proof. I have one cup of hot tea in the morning and I add 1 tablespoon of butter and one tablespoon of MCT oil to it and then emulsify it in my nutrabullet. Foamy goodness.
Within about a month of starting carnivore I lost the desire to eat by the clock (three meals a day) and started to just eat when I got hungry. So now I generally eat just once a day but when I do it’s a lot and loaded with fat.
Your rash could really be just about anything and may not even be related to carnivore but if it is you could be a form of oxalate dumping.
Don’t overthink this WOE and don’t overthink it.
KCCO

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Orweller · April 13

"Everything tastes better with butter"

That should be a T-shirt...

Joolz · April 13

Hi all

thank you so much for your replies. I feel much more informed now. I went into this without doing the research I should have done

I decided to try carni because I’d heard it was good to get rid of inflammation. I had my gall bladder out nearly 40 years ago, and since then I’ve had no end of gastro problems. I’ve been on medication for years because of it, but the drugs are not working as well anymore and I started to take loads of Gaviscon. An endoscopy 4 weeks ago revealed gastritis, which explained all the discomfort.

I started carni just over 3 weeks ago, jumped into it overnight from a normal English diet (I’m in the UK) and amazingly my gastritis symptoms have all but disappeared. Its incredible!

feeling very encouraged to keep on going now, but I’ll work on getting the fat/protein balance right!

thank you so much

Laara · April 13

I really need some help here. I've been on the diet for 13 days and not one good bowel movement... just bits of diaarrhea, especially in the first few days, then nothing for about five days, then I started taking magnesium citrate and I cheated with one banana, but still, only bits of diarrhea. What do I need to do? I feel bloated and heavy of course, and low energy. I started electrolytes to help with that.

ImCharlieBruh · April 13

the way I found out how much fat I needed was to keep eating it untill I had diarrhea which was nice because I was constipated. backed off a little on the fat and bam.

I've never heard of anyone dying from too much protein usually your body eliminates this through the kidneys and urine. I skimmed your post apologies if you mentioned how long you've been on. Could just be transition id try sticking with beef only cut eggs and dairy out see how you feel add in things once you get a baseline. Kinda like playing darts blindfolded in terms on inflammation markers and histamine triggers. Highly unlikely the beef is causing it

only way to square it up to see what's causing it is to eliminate everything else.

Edit.....I was going to post this last night. But I'm glad to hear things are clearing up. I figured I spent the time to write it ill post it. doctors are going to say it will kill you smart doctors will will say your on the right tract.

If you are still worried in the future about inflammation markers I can list out some tests for you. they will come back 0 if your not cheating with carbs and sugar.

Geezy · April 14

I had my gall bladder out nearly 40 years ago, and since then I’ve had no end of gastro problems.

I started carni just over 3 weeks ago, jumped into it overnight from a normal English diet (I’m in the UK) and amazingly my gastritis symptoms have all but disappeared. Its incredible!

I lost my gallbladder back in 97 but I suffered with IBS for even longer and I eventually developed Crohn’s last year but in just 30 days on carnivore it all cleared up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Laara · April 14

That's amazing! Congratulations!!!

Bob · April 14

16 hours ago, Laara said:

I really need some help here. I've been on the diet for 13 days and not one good bowel movement... just bits of diaarrhea, especially in the first few days, then nothing for about five days, then I started taking magnesium citrate and I cheated with one banana, but still, only bits of diarrhea. What do I need to do? I feel bloated and heavy of course, and low energy. I started electrolytes to help with that.

This is part of the transition or adaptation phase. When I started, the first 6 weeks my bowels were unpredictable. It would either be hard as rocks, or liquid disaster. The longest I went without going was 8 days.

Eventually things returned to my new normal, which is basically having to go about twice a week.

Meat is almost entirely digested high up in the intestinal tract, and produces very little waste. Therefore you will go less than you were previously used to. Before, a lot of that plant matter, particularly the fiber, couldn't be broken down, and would go right through you.

ImCharlieBruh · April 14

20 hours ago, Laara said:

I really need some help here. I've been on the diet for 13 days and not one good bowel movement... just bits of diaarrhea, especially in the first few days, then nothing for about five days, then I started taking magnesium citrate and I cheated with one banana, but still, only bits of diarrhea. What do I need to do? I feel bloated and heavy of course, and low energy. I started electrolytes to help with that.

go grab mag glycine potassium gluconate and some good salt. You probably arnt drinking enough water which is why you are retaining water. You arnt going to get perfect bowels after 13 days your body has to deal with years abuse and improper diet. Has to restructure fat dump all the insulin millions of other processes including learning how to process all the heavy fat and high protein depending on how much you ate before carnivore. Carb and sugar detox is real carnivore flu is as well.

watch how much sugar and carbs they hide in those hydration packets and drinks. Which is why I make my own unless I wanna treat.

Laara · April 14

6 hours ago, Bob said:

This is part of the transition or adaptation phase. When I started, the first 6 weeks my bowels were unpredictable. It would either be hard as rocks, or liquid disaster. The longest I went without going was 8 days.

Eventually things returned to my new normal, which is basically having to go about twice a week.

Meat is almost entirely digested high up in the intestinal tract, and produces very little waste. Therefore you will go less than you were previously used to. Before, a lot of that plant matter, particularly the fiber, couldn't be broken down, and would go right through you.

Thanks Bob: this is helpful and reassuring. yes, salads and fruit used to go right through me and I won't miss that. Twice a week? Wow. I've never experienced that and would have been alarmed if this was the case for me but now I can relax and just let it happen as everything adjusts. Thanks again

Joolz · April 14

19 hours ago, Geezy said:

I lost my gallbladder back in 97 but I suffered with IBS for even longer and I eventually developed Crohn’s last year but in just 30 days on carnivore it all cleared up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow that’s incredible! Well done!

Joolz · April 14

23 hours ago, ImCharlieBruh said:

the way I found out how much fat I needed was to keep eating it untill I had diarrhea which was nice because I was constipated. backed off a little on the fat and bam.

I've never heard of anyone dying from too much protein usually your body eliminates this through the kidneys and urine. I skimmed your post apologies if you mentioned how long you've been on. Could just be transition id try sticking with beef only cut eggs and dairy out see how you feel add in things once you get a baseline. Kinda like playing darts blindfolded in terms on inflammation markers and histamine triggers. Highly unlikely the beef is causing it

only way to square it up to see what's causing it is to eliminate everything else.

Edit.....I was going to post this last night. But I'm glad to hear things are clearing up. I figured I spent the time to write it ill post it. doctors are going to say it will kill you smart doctors will will say your on the right tract.

If you are still worried in the future about inflammation markers I can list out some tests for you. they will come back 0 if your not cheating with carbs and sugar.

Thank you, yes my rash is getting better, and my stomach is feeling soooo much better, with no acid reflux. I’ve increased my fat intake and am loving it!

Joolz · April 14

On 4/13/2024 at 4:41 AM, Geezy said:

Bob is spot on from the technical side. Now I’ll give it to you from the simple side.
Cook everything in animal fat. Try to eat only fatty meats and don’t shy away from eating the fat. Use the fat rendering from the cooked meat as a sauce over your meat. If the meat you’re eating is lean, such as chicken, pork, venison, beef with no fat like a fillet or hamburger with all the fat cooked out of it then slather it in butter. Buttery chicken is tasty. For that matter, everything tastes better with butter.
Do you drink coffee or tea? If so you could do like I do and make it bullet proof. I have one cup of hot tea in the morning and I add 1 tablespoon of butter and one tablespoon of MCT oil to it and then emulsify it in my nutrabullet. Foamy goodness.
Within about a month of starting carnivore I lost the desire to eat by the clock (three meals a day) and started to just eat when I got hungry. So now I generally eat just once a day but when I do it’s a lot and loaded with fat.
Your rash could really be just about anything and may not even be related to carnivore but if it is you could be a form of oxalate dumping.
Don’t overthink this WOE and don’t overthink it.
KCCO

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you, I’ve started adding butter to my coffee… it’s absolutely delicious! Great idea, thanks

Joolz · April 14

On 4/13/2024 at 1:58 AM, Bob said:

What was your diet like before starting your carnivore/carnivore-centric diet? Did you switch from the standard American diet to carnivore overnight?

Sounds like you are experiencing prurigo pigmentosa, which is the scientific name for this rash which basically just means "itchy skin".

I would agree that this is a good place to start. Although it doesn't sound like you are eating too much protein. But it could certainly be that you are not getting enough fat. How do you have your eggs? How do you cook that steak? Are you sure there aren't carbs in the meatballs (a typical meatball recipe does call for breadcrumbs)?

64kgs is 141 pounds. Typically, you want to eat 0.8 to 1g of protein per pound, unless you are trying to build muscle at the gym and then you could increase that to 1.2g or more. If you are currently at your goal weight, that would be 112-140g per day (about 560 calories). You want at least a 1:1 ratio of protein to fat, which means if you eat 140g of protein per day, you also want to eat 140g of fat per day (1260 calories). This works out to be 70% calories from fat and 30% calories from protein. Some people like to strive for even higher fat:protein ratios.

If you have been skimping on the fat, your body, being used to running on glucose, might work hard to break down that protein and convert it to glucose. The by-products from protein breakdown accumulate in your blood and give you the rash. By bumping up the fat intake, you will teach your body to become fat adapted -> when it learns to have a preference for fat and ketones over that of sugar and carbs. But this adaptation takes time, and it takes generous consumption of fat.

Other possibilities that come to mind is an intolerance towards the eggs or a histamine intolerance towards the beef, but if you have ate these things all your life anyway this is probably not the case. I think you are on the right track.

Thank you so much for all this info, it’s incredibly helpful. I’ve now reduced my overall protein and increased fat big time. I make my own meatballs with beef mince, cheddar cheese, bacon and egg

ImCharlieBruh · April 15

6 hours ago, Joolz said:

Thank you so much for all this info, it’s incredibly helpful. I’ve now reduced my overall protein and increased fat big time. I make my own meatballs with beef mince, cheddar cheese, bacon and egg

those sound great imma have to add some beef fat into some ground lamb meatballs might splurge with extra dairy and make Alfredo sauce with em