Vitamin C ??

[Guest mary]

How can you get essential nutrients like vitamin C without eating any plant matter? I've heard this puts you at risk for scurvy. Are people on carnivore diets getting scurvy?

[Bob]

Hello Mary,

Since you mentioned scurvy in particular, let's answer this with scurvy in mind. You only need 10mg a day to prevent scurvy. And meat actually does contain some vitamin C but in small quantities. For example, grain-fed beef has 1.6 mg of vitamin C per 100g, and grass-fed beef has 2.53 mg of vitamin C per 100g. Organ meats are superfoods and have a lot more vitamin C.

If you do the math, if you were to only eat grain-fed beef, 2 pounds of beef a day would give you 14.5 mg of vitamin C which is more than the scurvy threshold.

There's much more than can be said about Vitamin C, such as why humans on a carnivore diet don't need as much, and more. But the simple answer to the scurvy concern is that there is enough Vitamin C in meat to alleviate any concerns about coming down with scurvy.

 

 

[Geezy]

To start with, lack of vitamin C does not cause scurvy. Those who spread that myth know nothing about nutrition and human physiology.
To add to what Bob said, yes meat has vitamin C in small quantities but when you are metabolically healthy your body doesn’t need very much C.
The myth about getting scurvy from not eating fruit comes from the ocean faring sailors of old having to eat limes while at sea to prevent scurvy. But the real reason they got scurvy was because they ate grains and slave food ( porridge, grains and such) and had no access to fresh meat. They were not metabolically healthy.
There are tens of thousands of people that have been eating carnivore for their whole lives and many here in the States that have been carni for 10,20 ,30 years and none of them have ever contracted scurvy.
Keep calm and carni on.


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[Debashis]

To obtain vitamin C without consuming plants, carnivore diet followers rely on organ meats, such as liver, which contain some vitamin C. However, vitamin C deficiency can still occur on carnivore diets, potentially leading to scurvy. Regular monitoring and appropriate supplementation may be necessary for those following this diet.

[Geezy]

To obtain vitamin C without consuming plants, carnivore diet followers rely on organ meats, such as liver, which contain some vitamin C. However, vitamin C deficiency can still occur on carnivore diets, potentially leading to scurvy. Regular monitoring and appropriate supplementation may be necessary for those following this diet.

I believe you are incorrect because as I said earlier, when you are methodically healthy your body doesn’t need nearly as much vitamin C and what you do get from meats is enough.
There are thousands of carnivores out there that have been eating this lifestyle for decades and none of them have ever gotten scurvy. There is not one documented case that I’m aware of and that the carnivore doctors are aware of where anyone contracted scurvy because they are only fresh meat.


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[Guest Jen]

I found this forum specifically for help with this issue of vitamin C.  I'm considering switching from keto to carnivore, to hopefully clear up my inflammation problems completely. But I'm worried about not getting enough vitamin C.  I'm scared my immunity will decrease and I will catch everything and get even sicker if I don't get enough. I currently supplement with 2000 mg a day and have recently stopped eating fruit, vegetables and grain.

I've heard it said that there is some in meat, especially liver, and that when you are low carb, you don't need as much anyway. But I'm still not convinced it's completely safe to not eat any fresh fruit and vegetables, ever. 

Could someone suggest a link to more evidence, information and any studies so I can learn more.

Thanks.

[Bob]

1 hour ago, Guest Jen said:

Could someone suggest a link to more evidence, information and any studies so I can learn more.

Sure.

Here is a quote from https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminC-HealthProfessional/ that shows that a mere 10mg per day of Vitamin C is all that is needed to prevent scurvy.

Quote

Vitamin C Deficiency

...Acute vitamin C deficiency leads to scurvy. The timeline for the development of scurvy varies, depending on vitamin C body stores, but signs can appear within 1 month of little or no vitamin C intake (below 10 mg/day)....

...Today, vitamin C deficiency and scurvy are rare in developed countries. Overt deficiency symptoms occur only if vitamin C intake falls below approximately 10 mg/day for many weeks.

 

 

The following quote is from this study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0309174006002701?via%3Dihub shows that meat, including muscle meat, has vitamin C...

Quote

 

As meat is a complex matrix, different models have been developed for studying the balance and the interaction between anti- and pro-oxidant substances. Antioxidant defences are composed by non-enzymatic hydro and liposoluble compounds like vitamin E, vitamin C, carotenoids, ubiquinols, polyphenols, cellular thiols, and enzymes like superoxide dismutase (SOD), catalase (CAT) and glutathione peroxidase (GPX). Together enzymatic and non-enzymatic systems operate to counteract the action of pro-oxidants in muscle tissues (Decker, Livisay, & Zhou, 2000, chap. 2).

We have previously described that pasture feeding confers higher levels of vitamin E, β-carotene (in agreement with other authors: Yang et al., 2002, Gatellier et al., 2004) and vitamin C (Descalzo et al., 2005). However, it is desirable to establish a method that can measure the antioxidant activity of meat.

 

 

Here is a study that has a chart about 2/3's of the way down the page showing how many mg of vitamin C there is per 100mb (3 oz) of various meats...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8266228/

You will note that even muscle meat has about 2mg per 3oz serving. So if you eat 1.25 lbs of muscle meat, you have got all the vitamin C you need. And most of us are eating 2 or more pounds per day.

Hope this helps, Jen!

 

[Geezy]

It’s my understanding that scurvy is not caused by lack of vitamin C and there are thousands of carnivores that prove this.

Getting sick and being susceptible to every little disease around you is due to poor metabolic health. Once your body is healed it is much better at warding off illnesses.
60 days into my carnivore transformation I caught a cold. I was over it in 24 hours. In, out, no lingering.
If you don’t have the confidence to go full carnivore and don’t believe the testimonies of thousands upon thousands of carnivores that have been doing this for 10, 15, 20 years or longer then by all means, take your C supplements, eat your fruits and vegetables and do what’s right for you.
Me, I completely trust what I have learned and experienced. I also know that I cannot be healthy eating those non-nutritious foods.


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[Orweller]

Take a vitamin C every other day, problem solved. 

 

[Jen]

On 12/9/2023 at 10:01 PM, Geezy said:

....If you don’t have the confidence to go full carnivore and don’t believe the testimonies of thousands upon thousands of carnivores that have been doing this for 10, 15, 20 years or longer then by all means, take your C supplements, eat your fruits and vegetables and do what’s right for you.....

Hey Geezy, I get what you are saying here and feel a bit ashamed for not yet having faith and confidence. The problem is, after a lifetime of brainwashing about fruits, vegetables, grains etc. I seemed to be having problems knowing what's actually right for me. Lots of anecdotal evidence crashing up against a deeply programmed mind which is backed by fear.  Yesterday I was experiencing psychological nausea and revulsion when I looked down at my plate of meat only dinner, steak, wagyu beef sausages and a couple of lambs brains. I managed to get most of it down, in reality it was delicious.  But after, I got an overwhelming notion that I had just poisoned myself and grabbed some blueberries in an attempt to purify my body. I can see how ridiculous my behavior is, but this is where I am right now. This reminds me of how people often need to be deprogrammed when they leave a cult. I was part of the vegan/vegetarian cult for years and still haven't completely recovered, neither physically or mentally, but I'm getting there.

Thanks, everyone else for your comments, suggestions and links. I will check them out.

[Geezy]

Hey Geezy, I get what you are saying here and feel a bit ashamed for not yet having faith and confidence. The problem is, after a lifetime of brainwashing about fruits, vegetables, grains etc. I seemed to be having problems knowing what's actually right for me. Lots of anecdotal evidence crashing up against a deeply programmed mind which is backed by fear.  Yesterday I was experiencing psychological nausea and revulsion when I looked down at my plate of meat only dinner, steak, wagyu beef sausages and a couple of lambs brains. I managed to get most of it down, in reality it was delicious.  But after, I got an overwhelming notion that I had just poisoned myself and grabbed some blueberries in an attempt to purify my body. I can see how ridiculous my behavior is, but this is where I am right now. This reminds me of how people often need to be deprogrammed when they leave a cult. I was part of the vegan/vegetarian cult for years and still haven't completely recovered, neither physically or mentally, but I'm getting there.
Thanks, everyone else for your comments, suggestions and links. I will check them out.

I understand some of what you’re talking about because most of us have been there. I know it was hard to fathom that all the years I was being brainwashed was just a lie but once I started seeing how all of the research that had been telling us these lies was all fabricated it became easier to accept the truth.
The part I can’t emphasize with is how your mind is so hung up on not eating meat that it’s repulsive. I just can’t relate to that because I’ve always preferred meat over anything else.
I think that maybe you need to just start slowly and ease into carnivore if you still desire to do it.
Just eliminate all sugar, processed foods and seed oils. That would be a big step towards better health right there. Eat fatty meat. Whole fresh vegetables. Berries. Eggs and butter. Then slowly cut back on the veggies by going to lower carb veggies and then slowly wean yourself off of those and then wean yourself off of the berries. Maybe this may help.


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[Orweller]

9 hours ago, Jen said:

Hey Geezy, I get what you are saying here and feel a bit ashamed for not yet having faith and confidence. The problem is, after a lifetime of brainwashing about fruits, vegetables, grains etc. I seemed to be having problems knowing what's actually right for me. Lots of anecdotal evidence crashing up against a deeply programmed mind which is backed by fear.  Yesterday I was experiencing psychological nausea and revulsion when I looked down at my plate of meat only dinner, steak, wagyu beef sausages and a couple of lambs brains. I managed to get most of it down, in reality it was delicious.  But after, I got an overwhelming notion that I had just poisoned myself and grabbed some blueberries in an attempt to purify my body. I can see how ridiculous my behavior is, but this is where I am right now. This reminds me of how people often need to be deprogrammed when they leave a cult. I was part of the vegan/vegetarian cult for years and still haven't completely recovered, neither physically or mentally, but I'm getting there.

Thanks, everyone else for your comments, suggestions and links. I will check them out.

I'm going to be honest here, the first week in I was literally waiting for that heart attack. This is going against everything I have ever been thought. Now exactly 2 weeks without fiber! I have always eaten fairly disciplined, greens, fiber, whole foods, grains, oatmeal, etc. 

It is normal and okay to be in the state you are right now. Every diet or lifestyle requires a healthy amount of scrutiny. It's your body and health on the line after all. I went into this just to see what it does for me in a month, and see from there. I can quit, or go more towards keto-vore, or even keto. One thing I haven't eaten in those 30 days is, refined sugar, processed foods, seed oils, fast food, that can't be that bad. 

I eat pretty much anything, but lambs brains would have me gagging too. I applaud you for trying it.

Please, do not feel ashamed. 

[Bob]

On 12/14/2023 at 9:38 PM, Jen said:

I got an overwhelming notion that I had just poisoned myself and grabbed some blueberries in an attempt to purify my body... I was part of the vegan/vegetarian cult for years and still haven't completely recovered

Well the good news is you didn't reach for a pastry or some ultra-processed food

Welcome aboard, btw!

 

I was skeptical at first too, but the longer I stuck to it the better I felt. When my blood pressure started trending downward and I lost weight I realized this has to be good for me.

On 12/14/2023 at 10:58 PM, Geezy said:

I think that maybe you need to just start slowly and ease into carnivore if you still desire to do it.
Just eliminate all sugar, processed foods and seed oils. That would be a big step towards better health right there. Eat fatty meat. Whole fresh vegetables. Berries. Eggs and butter.

This is good advice here. I also had to ease into it. I went from low carb to lazy keto to clean keto to carnivore. I always tell people to at least eliminate sugars, grains, and seed oils, and eat from farm to table - no ultra-processed foods. That alone should prove to have it's benefits, and gets your mind on the right track. I believe whether you are strict carnivore, meat-based keto, or even animal-based + occasional fruit, you are doing yourself a major favor, and those are just different plot points on the spectrum of a proper human diet.

Now depending on what your health goals are helps predict how far you should go. If you have health issues you want to reverse, the closer to true carnivore you will want to move.

[Jen]

On 12/11/2023 at 5:48 AM, Orweller said:

Take a vitamin C every other day, problem solved. 

 

Thanks for this suggestion, yes I guess I’ll taper off my supplements and see how I do, perhaps stick with some vitamin D through winter and the occasional vitamin C tablet.

I read through the study posted by Bob, thanks Bob, that was very interesting. It seems that there was some intake of vitamin C rich foods besides muscle meat at times of the year and that there was a concern about getting enough with some sub-clinical deficiencies at times. 
I looked at the very expensive keto algae wafers in my grocery store yesterday, $8.99 for 100 grams, I don’t think so. I’m glad I don’t have to eat seal eyes to survive. I heard a suggestion in a video about how to eat liver if you hate it, frozen in small pieces and swallowed down like a supplement, I bought some and will try it, but I’m also thinking about making pate, but haven’t figured out what to use in place of the hot, buttered toast it usually gets spread on.

[Orweller]

2 hours ago, Jen said:

Thanks for this suggestion, yes I guess I’ll taper off my supplements and see how I do, perhaps stick with some vitamin D through winter and the occasional vitamin C tablet.

I read through the study posted by Bob, thanks Bob, that was very interesting. It seems that there was some intake of vitamin C rich foods besides muscle meat at times of the year and that there was a concern about getting enough with some sub-clinical deficiencies at times. 
I looked at the very expensive keto algae wafers in my grocery store yesterday, $8.99 for 100 grams, I don’t think so. I’m glad I don’t have to eat seal eyes to survive. I heard a suggestion in a video about how to eat liver if you hate it, frozen in small pieces and swallowed down like a supplement, I bought some and will try it, but I’m also thinking about making pate, but haven’t figured out what to use in place of the hot, buttered toast it usually gets spread on.

I think vitamin D supplements are not a problem. 42% of adults in the US are vitamin D deficient. Especially during the winter time, it's a must. Though, never overdo it, as vitamin D can turn toxic, much like vitamin K. But for vitamin D it's highly unlikely to overdose especially if you keep the doses small. 

For liver, I eat liver-worst. Braunschweiger wurst. Slice it and eat it. I do supplement in the meantime (C, D, Magnesium, Potassium, Fish Oil, K), and as I broaden my diet into organ meats or salmon, etc, I will taper off accordingly. As for Keto snacks, overpriced, and redundant. I write down what I take so I can keep track. 

[Bob]

5 hours ago, Jen said:

I’m glad I don’t have to eat seal eyes to survive.

 

5 hours ago, Jen said:

I guess I’ll taper off my supplements and see how I do, perhaps stick with some vitamin D through winter and the occasional vitamin C tablet

FWIW, I take 10,000 IU's of Vitamin D each day, 5000 with each meal. But I lose a lot of Vitamin D due to my kidney issues, so my levels never go above 50. I'm not saying you should take as much, as it could send you into toxic levels, but there are many many keto carnivores who take a Vitamin D supplement, especially if they live further away from the equator.  

A Vitamin C supplement isn't going to be "bad" by any means. I just wanted to highlight how little Vitamin C we actually need when we're not guzzling sugar and carbs, and how that little amount is obtainable in meat and eggs, even without the organs.

[Geezy]

Pate does not need to be eaten with toast. I make my own and will eat it with pork rinds or fry some up and scramble some eggs into it. Then there’s always pate and egg pancakes.
Liverwurst was mentioned. This I also make and I like it better than pate. Same principles apply when eat it as well.
Bob is correct when taking vitamin C.
If you are eating carnivore, you will become metabolically heathy and when you are metabolically healthy you just don’t need to supplement vitamin C because your body is no longer having to fight off the toxins in your body. Now if you get a cold of the flu then yes, I can see supplementing to help fight that off.
Vitamin D is necessary in my opinion because we generally don’t get enough sun.


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[Orweller]

2 hours ago, Geezy said:

Pate does not need to be eaten with toast. I make my own and will eat it with pork rinds or fry some up and scramble some eggs into it. Then there’s always pate and egg pancakes.
Liverwurst was mentioned. This I also make and I like it better than pate. Same principles apply when eat it as well.
Bob is correct when taking vitamin C.
If you are eating carnivore, you will become metabolically heathy and when you are metabolically healthy you just don’t need to supplement vitamin C because your body is no longer having to fight off the toxins in your body. Now if you get a cold of the flu then yes, I can see supplementing to help fight that off.
Vitamin D is necessary in my opinion because we generally don’t get enough sun.


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Wish I could make my own Paté. Or liverwurst for that matter. 

[Jen]

On 12/15/2023 at 8:08 PM, Orweller said:

I eat pretty much anything, but lambs brains would have me gagging too. I applaud you for trying it.

Lambs brains were a favorite when I was growing up, so it was the easiest part of the meal for me. My mother used to coat them in egg and bread crumbs, pan fry them in butter and serve with wedges of fresh lemon. I grew up eating them and didn't even know what they were. Soon after I was married, my husband and I were temporarily staying with my parents, my mother cooked brains one night and to me it was a normal thing, but my husband went nuts, refused to eat them and told me that if I ate any, he would never kiss me ever again....and he was serious.

[Jen]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:51 PM, Bob said:

Now depending on what your health goals are helps predict how far you should go. If you have health issues you want to reverse, the closer to true carnivore you will want to move.

Hi Bob,

I wrote a fairly long response to this part of your post yesterday, tried to post my reply and it disappeared, maybe a good thing because I was probably rambling a bit too much.

Here's the TLDR version. I have about 60 lbs to lose and I'm continuing to recover from a seriously damaged nervous system, otherwise known as an iatrogenic toxic brain injury. Going keto a few years ago gave me back my ability to multitask, motivation and helped to stabilize my moods, but when the virus hit, I slipped back into carbs due to stress and not being able to get food so easily.

My goals are to completely recover and live a long and happy life