so... when do benefits appear?

johnnypepperoni · July 7

hey, don't know if this is the right subforum, apologize in advance if it's not.

I started carnivore on 1st June.

I'm doing it for depression and other mental health conditions. (I'm not even fat)

I'm doing high fat (86%), with a focus on high ketones, I'm averaging 3.5mmol ketones.

I eat the same stuff every day, with very minor variations in the type of meat. I eat chuck meat, full fat cream, cheese, eggs, fat trimmings, ghee and butter.

that's it.

I'm trying this because nothing else has worked, and I really mean NOTHING else.

so... the thing is... so far... nothing happened. not seeing benefits. nothing. I feel exactly the same as always. not worse, not better. nothing. like I'm not even doing a diet.

yeah 1 month is nothing... but everyone I see that gets benefits sees them pretty soon... 1-2 weeks in.

I will do 3 months max to evaluate. but I'm already prepared for another fail.

Scott F. · July 7

I was fat when I started on May 8th and have lost 40lbs but still fat. The physical change can be fairly evident from the beginning.

My first big surprise was that having NMO/Devic's (just about like MS) I have taken some pain medication and somewhat regular anti-inflammatory medicine. As I was reading about the anti-inflammatory effects of the diet I remembered I hadn't taken my medicine that week nor did I need it. The following week the same. Now it has been 6+ weeks without medication.

I didn't follow directions very well (actually didn't bother to find out) and I missed with the electrolytes early on and felt sort of run down but not completely dragging, but slow. Once I adjusted the electrolyte/salt intake my energy level is far better than before May 8th.

The above three are physical and can be seen and felt.

For me, I have not found the 'brain clearing/super focused' clarity I have read about. For me that is one in the same as before. The closest thing is that I sleep better now and when I wake up I wake up and am ready to go. I don't have the slow-roll out of bed and drag to the start of the day.

Not being a medical professional, actually nowhere near, I would say to give it some time.

Best of luck.

Scott

johnnypepperoni · July 7

3 hours ago, Scott F. said:

I was fat when I started on May 8th and have lost 40lbs but still fat. The physical change can be fairly evident from the beginning.

My first big surprise was that having NMO/Devic's (just about like MS) I have taken some pain medication and somewhat regular anti-inflammatory medicine. As I was reading about the anti-inflammatory effects of the diet I remembered I hadn't taken my medicine that week nor did I need it. The following week the same. Now it has been 6+ weeks without medication.

I didn't follow directions very well (actually didn't bother to find out) and I missed with the electrolytes early on and felt sort of run down but not completely dragging, but slow. Once I adjusted the electrolyte/salt intake my energy level is far better than before May 8th.

The above three are physical and can be seen and felt.

For me, I have not found the 'brain clearing/super focused' clarity I have read about. For me that is one in the same as before. The closest thing is that I sleep better now and when I wake up I wake up and am ready to go. I don't have the slow-roll out of bed and drag to the start of the day.

Not being a medical professional, actually nowhere near, I would say to give it some time.

Best of luck.

Scott

you have less pain
you have more energy
you sleep better
you wake up easier

those are benefits.

I have none so far.

will give 3 months, but I already can see the futility of this

Geezy · July 8

You are correct in that it’s only been one month and you should do at least 90 days. That’s good of you.
The thing with this way of eating is that we are all different with different physiology’s and as such the diet affects us all differently.
I think your diet is really good for achieving results but some people don’t tolerate cheese and dairy very well so that may be a hindrance.
It seems that people who have many health issues and are obese seem to have more pronounced results that those that come to it fairly healthy. And to be honest, even though I believe that this is the healthiest way for everyone to eat, it may not work as well for you as it does others with the same issues.
It’s no different that the person that loses 100 pounds in six months vs the one who gains 10 pounds in the same amount of time eating the exact same way. It’s just different with everyone. But the person that gained weight during that six months stuck with the diet and things turned around and smashes a very healthy and fit young lady. Look her up some time, Kelly Hogan on utube.
While carnivore hasn’t cured some things in me that it has others, skin tags still there, still don’t sleep well, I will alway eat this way because I know that it’s the way we should eat and it has helped me in some tremendous ways.
It can take some people more time than others to see results so hang in there and hopefully you see a big difference in time.
Good luck

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Orweller · July 8

You cannot lean on a diet when it regards mental problems. It solely lies in the cause of mental distress. Diet can be another helper, and I do hope this is the case for you. But mental struggles can stem from years of trauma, upbringing, years of eating junk, even genetics play a role. I'd strongly advice to give the diet at least 90 days without expectations. Expectations are a killer of many good things, but especially when dealing with depression. I do not mean to sound harsh or judgmental, I just want you to succeed, this diet is indeed, not a magic pill, it does take a mental switch, even for the ones without any mental problems.

Do not prepare for failure, as that will be the very thing you'll get. Prepare for success, and be wrong when it doesn't work, then at least, you'll have a lesson, data, to get you to a better path.

Scott F. · July 8

On 7/7/2024 at 2:41 PM, johnnypepperoni said:

you have less pain
you have more energy
you sleep better
you wake up easier

those are benefits.

I have none so far.

will give 3 months, but I already can see the futility of this

Yep, I had some benefits within the first few days and first few weeks. So it was a bit easier to keep going.

My point was all my benefits were physical and easily seen. The one thing I have read about is the mental clarity and I have not seen that at all, other than when I wake up. But I'm sleeping better as well.

I would think the mental type benefits would take longer and maybe even need to be coupled with other medical stuff.

As I read about anything it is a huge turn-off for me when this one thing is the 'end all-be all, miracle cure'. If you take this one pill you will have big muscles, a flat stomach, a longer wee-wee that is as big around as a soup can by tomorrow morning.

I doubt there is no one thing that fixes everything.

Hopefully you find some benefits soon and can stick it out for a stretch to see if it works for you. I'm a 60 days. I might wake up tomorrow and decide I have travelled as far down this road as I wanted and move on.....but going in I didn't have miracle cures in mind.

Best of luck and hope you find your plan.

Edited July 8 by Bob
Fixed formatting

Miranda · July 8

I hate to admit, because I love my dairy, but when I did eliminate it for a few weeks, I felt much better mentally, with both clarity and zest for life. I should consider discontinuing it again.

johnnypepperoni · July 8

4 hours ago, Orweller said:

You cannot lean on a diet when it regards mental problems

tell that to mikhaila peterson or the patients of chris palmer or georgia ede

4 hours ago, Orweller said:

But mental struggles can stem from years of trauma, upbringing, years of eating junk, even genetics play a role.

no trauma, good upbringing, no years of eating junk. I wouldn't exactly say genetics, but I'm sure that being born prematurely at 7 months fucked me over

4 hours ago, Orweller said:

this diet is indeed, not a magic pill

tell that to the hundreds of people reporting miracle cures from being in ketosis or removing their carbs. or people that found remission from epilepsy

4 hours ago, Orweller said:

Do not prepare for failure, as that will be the very thing you'll get. Prepare for success, and be wrong when it doesn't work, then at least, you'll have a lesson, data, to get you to a better path.

every treatment I did in my entire life I prepared for success. Never got any. I don't have to expect anything anymore, except more fails.

There's no better path, there's nothing after this. if this doesn't work I'm done.

Bob · July 8

3 hours ago, johnnypepperoni said:

tell that to mikhaila peterson or the patients of chris palmer or georgia ede... tell that to the hundreds of people reporting miracle cures from being in ketosis or removing their carbs. or people that found remission from epilepsy

It's true that ketogenic diets, including a strict carnivore or Lion Diet, and seemingly feel "miraculous" to certain individuals who struggled with health, well-being, and weight management all their lives and when they finally stumbled on this, by golly it worked. But at the same time there are still thousands of people who have not been able to come off their meds completely. Perhaps they could only reduce their dosage. Perhaps nothing changed at all. For example, while I have reversed about half a dozen of my chronic conditions, I still have stage 4 chronic kidney disease. I'm jealous of the testimonies of those who have reversed their kidney disease, but I am starting to come to the realization that I am not going to be one of them. Regardless, I've experienced enough benefits to stick with this a carnivore-centric (not even necessarily strict carnivore) for life.

If your issues can be traced back to being born prematurely, then is diet really going to fix it? It might help. It might not. Like @Orweller said, sometimes the cause of mental issues stems from other issues. My daughter suffers from depression that comes along in conjunction with PTSD. She can eat a proper human diet, but it doesn't erase the trauma. It may only help her deal with it.

I had mental and emotional instability problems myself. I didn't observe any specific turning point. Over time, it just dawned on me that I had been mentally and emotionally stable for a several months, which was unusual. Now I am aware of the improvement, but it was in retrospect.

If you have been on medication, I wouldn't not stop taking it cold turkey. Stick with this plan for 90 or 120 days to give your body plenty of time to adjust. Maybe you will find yourself in the enviable position of gradually lowering your dose and weaning yourself off the meds. And of course, maybe not.

On 7/6/2024 at 10:26 PM, johnnypepperoni said:

I eat chuck meat, full fat cream, cheese, eggs, fat trimmings, ghee and butter.

Some people don't do well with dairy. Some people can't do egg whites. Some people need to supplement electrolytes.

Have you had your vitamin D checked?

Orweller · July 8

5 hours ago, johnnypepperoni said:

tell that to mikhaila peterson or the patients of chris palmer or georgia ede

no trauma, good upbringing, no years of eating junk. I wouldn't exactly say genetics, but I'm sure that being born prematurely at 7 months fucked me over

tell that to the hundreds of people reporting miracle cures from being in ketosis or removing their carbs. or people that found remission from epilepsy

every treatment I did in my entire life I prepared for success. Never got any. I don't have to expect anything anymore, except more fails.

There's no better path, there's nothing after this. if this doesn't work I'm done.

I'm like you, on the carnivore diet, because nothing else worked, for 32 years. I was heading for a wheel chair, chronic pain, every single day. So I can somewhat understand your frustration and perhaps, desperation. We all want to get better.

I am not in doubt, of the success of this diet, from what I read, you are. 30 days in and you write it off. That's cynicism at best, and perhaps tragically based on your experience, and feeling hopelessness.

What I am saying is, you cannot lean on diet alone with regards to mental health, this diet seems to be a success for a lot of people, that is undeniable. But so many other aspects can influence ones mental state of mind, does this person work out? is this person in a good relationship? does this person have debt? So many external forces at play here, that diet alone won't make the depression just go away. But, and I think we can agree, this diet is a very good start, or part of that journey.

So when I say, do not lean on a diet, I mean, do not just use diet, but everything else! Hit the gym, start that hobby, whatever supplies you with an accumulative effect that get you out of trouble. It gives you, and this diet a better chance. You should never be done, you should always keep on fighting what is rightfully yours, your happiness. I am not attacking you, I am offering you a perspective, in which I may seem like an a$$hole, but truly not meant as such.

I just can't stand seeing somebody lose hope. I wish you the best.

johnnypepperoni · July 8

1 hour ago, Bob said:

If you have been on medication, I wouldn't not stop taking it cold turkey. Stick with this plan for 90 or 120 days to give your body plenty of time to adjust. Maybe you will find yourself in the enviable position of gradually lowering your dose and weaning yourself off the meds. And of course, maybe not.

not on medication right now. but I was prescribed different medications 1 year ago and they destroyed the small slivers of life and peace that I had.

I will do 90 days, no more. if I don't see enough benefit to keep going... would not make sense to continue.

1 hour ago, Bob said:

Some people don't do well with dairy. Some people can't do egg whites. Some people need to supplement electrolytes

yeah I thought about doing 1 month only meat. if I have the patience will try it. maybe I'm allergic to dairy or eggs... there's some guy on reddit that stopped drinking dairy and his chronic anxiety disappeared.

1 hour ago, Bob said:

Have you had your vitamin D checked?

Bob... I've been trying to fix this for more than 15 years. Bloodwork is always fine, no sleep apnea or thyroid or whatever. physically I'm always fine.

9 minutes ago, Orweller said:

I'm like you, on the carnivore diet, because nothing else worked, for 32 years. I was heading for a wheel chair, chronic pain, every single day. So I can somewhat understand your frustration and perhaps, desperation. We all want to get better

what happened then? did you get better?

9 minutes ago, Orweller said:

I am not in doubt, of the success of this diet, from what I read, you are. 30 days in and you write it off. That's cynicism at best, and perhaps tragically based on your experience, and feeling hopelessness.

will do 90 days, haven't given up. but right now on week 6 and seeing 0 signs... ZERO? highly suspicious

10 minutes ago, Orweller said:

What I am saying is, you cannot lean on diet alone with regards to mental health, this diet seems to be a success for a lot of people, that is undeniable. But so many other aspects can influence ones mental state of mind, does this person work out? is this person in a good relationship? does this person have debt? So many external forces at play here, that diet alone won't make the depression just go away. But, and I think we can agree, this diet is a very good start, or part of that journey.

So when I say, do not lean on a diet, I mean, do not just use diet, but everything else! Hit the gym, start that hobby, whatever supplies you with an accumulative effect that get you out of trouble.

will tell you the same thing I said to Bob. More than 15 years trying to get better. nothing works. every year gets worse. gym/exercise does nothing. social/relationships do nothing. I never had debt. hobbies, meditation, yadda yadda. it's all the same. external forces don't make a difference, having a purpose neither. therapy neither. medication actually gave me chronic issues that I didn't had before. Even psilocybin didn't work. supplements. blahblah. The "cumulative effect" doesn't make any sense when everything is 0+0+0+0+0+0

my brain is extremely broken.

11 minutes ago, Orweller said:

in which I may seem like an a$$hole

didn't

Orweller · July 9

11 hours ago, johnnypepperoni said:

what happened then? did you get better?

Yes, and I'll spend my entire life getting better. I was doing it before this diet, getting better. The diet though, gave that boost, perhaps the physiological response to food, hormonal, chemical, etc. but also with regards to inflammation, slowing the progression of my auto-immune disease, got me out of being stuck. Along with this diet there is 17 years of working out, working on myself, realizing I was going to live with this, acceptance, grief, and determination. So what if I was wrong in the end. It happened to be so, that the doctor was wrong, because I am in the best shape of my life, and developed the strength I need for dealing with chronic pain. I will look for solutions in everything, the diet just somehow, fitted in, or made things easier.

In your case the diet may be beneficial, IF in combination with exercise, (behavioral) therapy, medication (tricky but sometimes necessary). My depression was so obviously caused by physical pain, I had a roadmap out of it because of it. If you're dealing with clinical/major depression, which it sounds like you do, this diet may be just a part of the puzzle.

johnnypepperoni · July 9

5 hours ago, Orweller said:

It happened to be so, that the doctor was wrong, because I am in the best shape of my life, and developed the strength I need for dealing with chronic pain

good

5 hours ago, Orweller said:

In your case the diet may be beneficial, IF in combination with exercise, (behavioral) therapy, medication (tricky but sometimes necessary). My depression was so obviously caused by physical pain, I had a roadmap out of it because of it. If you're dealing with clinical/major depression, which it sounds like you do, this diet may be just a part of the puzzle.

yeah I love when people dismiss things I wrote. same as everyone. "get help" "do therapy"

Orweller · July 10

17 hours ago, johnnypepperoni said:

good

yeah I love when people dismiss things I wrote. same as everyone. "get help" "do therapy"

The irony. You're the dismissive one. People are trying to help and all you do is repeat your own negativity. You're defensive, while it's not needed. You really think therapy is a bad idea?

johnnypepperoni · July 11

14 hours ago, Orweller said:

The irony. You're the dismissive one. People are trying to help and all you do is repeat your own negativity. You're defensive, while it's not needed. You really think therapy is a bad idea?

I basically answered before that I tried that stuff and was a waste of time... and the only thing you do is repeat the same shitty advice. take a hike.

Geezy · July 11

Orweller’s advice is sound and logical. He has been patient and is only trying to help.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bob · July 11

18 hours ago, johnnypepperoni said:

the only thing you do is repeat the same shitty advice. take a hike

Listen, here you are the newbie. We don't know you, nor do we know what advice others have given you over the years. Repeating advice is bound to happen, especially when said advice proves to be beneficial for most people who apply it. We're sorry if it's not working for you, assuming that you are actually honestly applying it. Please understand that we want to help you, and we hope to see you succeed.

Telling another member who is demonstrating concern for you to "take a hike" is unwarranted. As a reminder, here is an excerpt from the Membership Policy you were required to read and agree to upon joining...

"Speech & Conduct

2) Be kind. Do not post statements or materials that are libelous or defame, harass, abuse, stalk, threaten, intimidate or in any way infringe on the rights of others.

10) No Trolling. Do not post off-topic comments that could cause unrest or disturbances among members and within discussions. This community does not tolerate direct or indirect attacks on another's character, nor does it tolerate deliberate attempts to derail, hijack, troll or bait others into an emotional response. We reserve the right to remove these types of comments if warranted. Individuals who consistently or intentionally post these types of comments may lose their ability to comment permanently."

johnnypepperoni · July 11

ok, sorry @Orweller

I'm just tired of everything. of getting my hopes up because "hey, maybe THIS helps!" and I'm not expecting full recovery... just at least 10% improvement or even 5%.

and I get... nothing. It's always nothing. over and over and over again.

you can't do anything to help me though. maybe if I'm doing anything wrong with this diet... but this is the 5th time I'm doing keto/carni and I already corrected every mistake or thing that I was probably doing wrong.

so... I will be do the full 3 months, just because I said I'll do it. but I don't expect anything.

Orweller · July 11

1 minute ago, johnnypepperoni said:

ok, sorry @Orweller

I'm just tired of everything. of getting my hopes up because "hey, maybe THIS helps!" and I'm not expecting full recovery... just at least 10% improvement or even 5%.

and I get... nothing. It's always nothing. over and over and over again.

you can't do anything to help me though. maybe if I'm doing anything wrong with this diet... but this is the 5th time I'm doing keto/carni and I already corrected every mistake or thing that I was probably doing wrong.

so... I will be do the full 3 months, just because I said I'll do it. but I don't expect anything.

All good here @johnnypepperoni

I just read your response but I don't take it personally. We're all humans living the human experience. So long as you know I was trying to help. You've got my sympathy, well wishes, and concern, for what it's worth. And I am well aware I can come over harshly -us Dutch folks we speak our minds, for better or worse. Good luck and I truly hope things will get better for you.