Hi all, was recommended to join here after chatting in the live on last night's Youtube video. 1 year ago I began eating a keto-vore type diet. Initially lost about 15 pounds and then nothing. Plateaued for months. At 9 months in, I developed a very itchy rash all over my flanks and armpits. So itchy that I could barely sleep. My energy felt like I was running on motor oil instead of gasoline as well. I asked around the carnivore space for help and was told the same 3 things over and over again: 1. you're oxalate dumping, add more electrolytes to support. 2. Just keep going, it will pass. 3. You must be doing your diet wrong.

I lasted another 3 weeks and had to bail on the diet. I wasn't sure if what I was experiencing was directly caused by the diet, but after adding carbs back in the itch began to go away after 3 days. And after 5 days the rash was gone. After this, my diet returned to the SAD diet and I gained about 10 pounds back.

Today, I am 3.5 weeks into the sugar diet. I've lost 9 pounds and I feel good up to this point.

Let me be clear... I don't think this is healthy when done for extended periods of time. There is no optimal human health when the diet excludes meat.

Currently I weigh 226 lbs. Goal is 175.

Hi, welcome to the community!

So what is your long term goal? What's your why?

Welcome. This is a good place to bounce your ideas and experiences around, sometimes just flinging it against the wall to see what sticks. I feel like any approach is welcome here.

I watched a read along last night as I was at work, and sometimes they expect me to work. But that is the part of the deal, I work, then get paid. But so it goes.

Obviously, we can't roll back time and I'm not pushing carnivore as the end all be all but Bart kay described something really similar, which is similar to Saladini, and he says the answer is to up the proteins and fats to match the amounts of the last of the carbs being eaten.

I'm not a doctor nor a scientist, and if it were oxalate dumping, the answer could have been the split between part of your system trying to detox from the very things that are a part of the other half of your diet. I have read the last phases of oxalate dumping is the worst. Maybe you were right there? Who knows?

I'm a 'to each his own' guy at heart. If the sugar diet gets you where you need/want to go, then by all means that is your path.

As I seen the topic for last night and started reading/watching videos I did not realize it was that big of a thing. There seems to be a lot of people moving in that direction. I don't think it would work for me in the short term, nor the long term. Although I didn't have the cravings and withdrawals form carbs and sugars like a lot of people do when making a sudden change but I have found since carnivore I am somewhat responsive to sugar.

I modified my carnivore approach to a high protein/moderate fat diet trying to hit a protein gram per pound number and the higher protein was in excess. I have to assume a lot of the excess protein was converted to sugar, probably more than my body needed to function, so in turn, it was stored. I gained 8-9 pounds in pretty much no time. Granted, my weight fluctuates 2-3-4 pounds daily and I am lifting heavier and more intense, but I doubt even a full pound of that is muscle. I can only imagine if I went all out sugar or loaded carbs again. I would more than likely find a big chunk of the 95 pounds I have lost.

It is an interesting approach. Good luck and keep the board posted. Like most approaches, with most people, it is the slight modifications to a way of eating that works best. I am a strict carnivore eater and have not eaten any carbs or sugars in 13 months, however, I do have a glass of milk every so often, and occasionally a piece of cheese on a burger.

I have thought about reintroduction of carbs at times but my carnivore approach has morphed into more of a health/metabolic approach than a weight loss endeavor. I'm not the luckiest guy in the world and I feel like whatever carb/vegetable I pick to reintroduce would be the very one that triggers my autoimmune disease and then I go right back down that rabbit hole. For me, that is a pretty big gamble, actually too big.

Good luck. I'm interested in the results.

Scott

Welcome Nick. I’m glad you joined us.

I’d be curious to know what your carnivore diet consisted of. Yes the rash could have been oxalate dumping, that seems to be the go to response in those situations but it could also have been an allergic reaction or histamine response to something. For some people who have some food sensitivities the Lion Diet is more suitable. I experienced some rashes on a couple of different occasions but mine weren’t as severe as yours sound like and mine went away after a week or two.

The energy running low sounds like the classic “not getting enough fat” or “not eating enough”. While I don’t have this great burst of energy that many talk about I do have a sustained energy that allows me to goo all day. Again, without knowing how you are it’s hard to try to evaluate what might have been the issue.

You seem to have a sensible mind and understanding of what is needed for a healthy diet so if you were eating a proper human diet and following carnivore correctly (that of course is relative to the individual) then it’s possible that eating a strict carnivore diet may not be right for you. Not everyone is cut out for this way of eating as their bodies do better with a little carbs in their lifestyle. For people who need some carbs in their diet we recommend that those carbs consist of whole vegetables in the form of green, above ground veggies. Stay away from starchy vegetables, seeds, seed oils and sugars except for the occasional fruit with berries being the best.

Regardless of whether you call it The Sugar Diet, Fructose Diet or Fruitarian Diet, the majority of people cannot sustain a healthy life consuming large quantities of sugars or fructose. Besides risking diabetes, fatty liver disease , inflammation, cancer, fat storage and overall poor metabolic health it’s just not sustainable for the long term in my opinion. There is no nutritional requirement for carbs in our bodies and we know that all carbs consumed are metabolized as sugar or glucose in our bodies. So since that is the case it would seem to me that adding some vegetables to the diet would be better than just sugar or fructose.

I personally believe that this whole sugar diet craze is nothing more than an excuse to not give into our sugar addictions. No society in the history of mankind has ever eating anything like the sugar diet so it seems pretty silly to me to start something new now.

Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not judging you or what you are trying in the least, it’s just not my thing. I think it’s great when people experiment and try different things. I follow Nick Norwitz and get a kick out of his N of 1 experiments. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to hearing all about your results.

Welcome aboard Nick.

I'm not as long winded typing on the phone vs talking in real life.

Miranda thank you and I will reiterate to Nick....What is your WHY for trying the carnivore lifestyle?

As I stated in chat last night, Geoff reiterates it.... the itchiness could have been caused by histamine in what you're eating.

Too many variables, vagueness in your diet and regimen to pinpoint what caused your problems with carnivore lifestyle.

Check out Michaela Peterson's journey as it could give you some insight as to what happened.

I was keto-vore for 9 months. Strict and monitored glucose and ketones regularly via keto mojo finger sticks. Was in low - moderate states of ketosis for months on end. Foods were largely Dr. Berrys BBB&E. I knew what I was doing and things were going great, until they weren’t. I mentioned last night that I’m not certain that my energy tanking and the rash were a result of my ketovore diet. But I added in carbs after experiencing the itchiest rash of my life for after about 4 weeks. Three days after adding carbs the itching started to go away. After 5 days the rash was gone. Again, my symptoms came after 9 months.

I’m moving away from the keto / carnivore lifestyle to experiment with a new weight loss strategy—sugar fasting. My WHY is simple… I have been chronically 40 pounds overweight for too many years. My opinion is that getting rid of the fat is the best thing that I can do for my body to improve overall health.

Oh wow. That rash sounds pretty painful. Sally K Norton was recently interviewed by Dr Kiltz. She gives easy and cheap recommendations for dealing with oxalate dumping. Check her out.

As for the last 40 lbs, I'm right there with you! Let us know how things go.

I think getting some before data would be good. Blood panel and cac score.

5 hours ago, Nick Heaz said:

I was keto-vore for 9 months. Strict and monitored glucose and ketones regularly via keto mojo finger sticks. Was in low - moderate states of ketosis for months on end. Foods were largely Dr. Berrys BBB&E. I knew what I was doing and things were going great, until they weren’t. I mentioned last night that I’m not certain that my energy tanking and the rash were a result of my ketovore diet. But I added in carbs after experiencing the itchiest rash of my life for after about 4 weeks. Three days after adding carbs the itching started to go away. After 5 days the rash was gone. Again, my symptoms came after 9 months.

I’m moving away from the keto / carnivore lifestyle to experiment with a new weight loss strategy—sugar fasting. My WHY is simple… I have been chronically 40 pounds overweight for too many years. My opinion is that getting rid of the fat is the best thing that I can do for my body to improve overall health.

You could do one food at a time if you truly believe in whole foods and your body will definately tell you if it doesn't like it.

Check out waywemove channel on youtube. I don't agree with her diet but her thinking on longevity and health with routine she puts out

I totally agree with.

15 minutes ago, Meathead said:

You could do one food at a time if you truly believe in whole foods and your body will definately tell you if it doesn't like it.

Check out waywemove channel on youtube. I don't agree with her diet but her thinking on longevity and health with routine she puts out

I totally agree with.

Second this! I have been trying her exercises for the past week or so and I feel better/ stronger already.

Maybe its possible your body didn't react well to the newest keto cookies. Good luck with sugar.

10 hours ago, Nick Heaz said:

But I added in carbs after experiencing the itchiest rash of my life for after about 4 weeks. Three days after adding carbs the itching started to go away. After 5 days the rash was gone.

Sally K. Norton speaks of this in her book Toxic Superfoods. As Miranda mentioned, Sally talks about slowly reducing oxalate carbs to reduce the effects of dumping.

10 hours ago, Nick Heaz said:

My opinion is that getting rid of the fat is the best thing that I can do for my body to improve overall health.

I agree with you. As your body heals it optimizes the weight.

6 hours ago, Geezy said:

Sally talks about slowly reducing oxalate carbs to reduce the effects of dumping.

Yes! The idea is to use a small amount as medicine. Not because you "need" the carbs tho, just the added oxalate containing foods to slow the dumping process. I drink black tea with lemon for this purpose. The lemon contains the citric acid needed for alkalizing. The tea contains the oxalate.

Fiber sucks it's wrecking our insides. Contraindicated.

Yes, I’m very familiar with Sally Norton. Electrolytes and hydration were part of my plan and routine from the get go. I did not to incorporate or “microdose” oxalate rich foods at the time of the rash. I tried to wait it out for a few weeks after it first appeared but it was unbearable. Adding carbs back into my diet cleared it entirely within 5 days. Maybe adding in very small portions of oxalate rich foods would have worked well… or maybe not at all. The only thing I’m certain of is the carbohydrates did and no rash has returned. The sugar diet continues to shed fat from my body with not negative sides. I will surely report anything negative that I experience here with everyone.

Good luck with what works for you. I'm interested in your progress.

Before carnivore when I was eating the dumpster type diet if I ate a lot of dessert coupled with the many Moutain Dews for the day with a couple big snack cakes, all that sugar, I crashed mid-afternoon.

Sugar rush followed by the crash.

Have you experienced a crash of sorts? Energy level drop offs at certain times of the day?

Scott

I have not experienced fluctuating energy during the day. After coming off a keto-carnivore diet and then spending about a month on the standard American diet, now going on 4 weeks with the sugar diet—and honestly, my energy feels better now than it ever did on keto-carnivore.

Interesting. Interested.

I have higher energy now on carnivore day to day.

I have an amazing amount of energy the last day of a 96 hour water fast and it lasts for another couple-three days afterwards.

Good luck and interested in your progress.

Scott

Check out this video on The Sugar Diet. Nick breaks it down scientifically and points out the pro’s and con’s very effectively.

Sounds like big candy to me. I'm hitching my wagon to "if you can't do it for a lifetime, don't do it for a day"

27 minutes ago, Geezy said:

Check out this video on The Sugar Diet. Nick breaks it down scientifically and points out the pro’s and con’s very effectively.

Great video and something that people who are attempting a protein restricted diet should be made aware of.

12 minutes ago, ketomonster said:

Sounds like big candy to me. I'm hitching my wagon to "if you can't do it for a lifetime, don't do it for a day"

It’s a weight loss strategy and not a forever diet. Vegans and fruitarians are the examples of individuals who have turned it into a way of eating for a lifetime. I’m not aware of anyone talking about sugar dieting and sugar fasting who is recommending it for a lifetime. I think most of the talking heads would tell you meat is essential for optimal human health. It’s simply different from carnivore. I believe the people with most success on carnivore and keto diets are those who suffer with autoimmune diseases, extreme food intolerance, and sugar addiction. I’m being redundant here but I thinks it’s necessary, sugar diet/fasting is a weight loss strategy. It’s not meant to be a forever diet. So many people who are carnivore are on health journeys for a variety of reasons, but mainly because other interventions have failed.

1 hour ago, Nick Heaz said:

It’s a weight loss strategy and not a forever diet.

That's totally fine then, hopefully by the time you finish the sugar diet someone will have popularized a keto candy diet. I do know the filipinos pour sugar on their spaghetti and they love it. Anyway wherever your diets takes you I hope you do well.