This is a really great video and definitely something anyone should watch and understand if they’re considering trying keto or sugar fasting.

In the video, Nick Norwitz explains that both high-carb, low-protein (sugar fasting) and high-fat, low-protein (keto) diets elevate FGF21, which is the hormone responsible for increasing fat metabolism by raising energy expenditure. He also notes that genetic variants in FGF21 are extremely common—present in about 44% of people. If you have one of these variants, your FGF21 levels may not increase as expected on either diet, which means you might not experience the same rise in energy expenditure—and could even gain weight.

So why does he only offer caution about the sugar diet? That seems incredibly biased. I believe the same level of caution should be applied to keto as well, especially since, by his own explanation, the mechanism behind weight loss and increased energy expenditure is the same—FGF21. He also mentions that obesity is a state in which FGF21 resistance is likely. So, if you're obese and part of the 44% with a genetic variant, it’s very possible that neither of these diets will work as intended. Based on his interpretation of the study, the warning he gives about the sugar diet should absolutely apply to keto too.

6 hours ago, Nick Heaz said:

Your mention of fat people failing the sugar diet is spoken about directly by Nick Norwitz in the video and he offers a potential reason why. I’m posing the question of why he didn’t offer the same caution to obese people trying keto considering he provides the same mechanism for fat loss while in ketosis, elevation of FGF21. Perhaps this is the same mechanism for people not having success in ketosis.

Interesting point. But with sugar consumption we also have to consider dopamine response, ghrelin hormone response, which are strongly correlated with sugar addiction.

Sugar is not just a sweet treat, it can be mood changing -no different than a drug- much connected with the brain reward system.

Much like cocaine, sugar (sucrose) was shown to hijack the brain reward system, causing changes in the cells in the nucleus accumbens. Even though each substance has a different pathway, ultimately they produce the same results.

You may draw the conclusion that a "fat" person has had prolonged exposure to sugar because of the aforementioned mechanisms.

The first thing that happens with keto or carnivore, due to the absence of such amount of sugars, that effect is nihil at best. The emotion is taken further from the act of eating.

As Nick Norwitz would probably utter "It's more nuanced".

Scott - I appreciate you and your approach. This is really great advice.

22 minutes ago, Orweller said:

I think when you talking about mere days, now that is an entire different discussion. Eating different for a few days is not really a diet, nor it is fasting -because we eat. It's going off the rails but WITHOUT the fat and protein. And that may make that binge a lot safer. I can definitely see that.

The only thing that puzzles me, is the wording. Diet, and fasting is used, but neither is the case, which makes me consider it rhetoric, euphamisms, if you will. The best thing is to be honest and say -I am going to eat shit loads of sugar as safe as possible for a few days to perhaps, lose weight, or seek an insuline response. If someone would use those words, it'd be easier to understand. But the whole thing is veiled under words that "sound" healthy. While in fact it's a somewhat risky venture in order to lose weight real fast.

And if people want to try it out, I am okay with it. I keep an open mind. If sugar diet works, I'd be delighted! I'd make Little Debbie's rich!

But having seen a similar movement in the nineties, I see it's but a cotton candy colored dream.

So you'd agree that it's a really short term strategy, rather than a diet?

The semantics of it all is a big problem. We can agree on that! Let me break it down:

Sugar Fasting--think 'water fasting.' Water fasts are a fast from all macro groups but still includes water. Sugar fasts exclude fat and protein but includes sugar (i prefer fruit, fruit juice, maple syrup and honey). This can be a 24 hour sugar fast or be run consecutively for days on end. The more obese someone is the longer than can theoretically get away with sugar fasting. Rapid weight loss with sugar fasting.

Sugar diet--think temporal eating... fruit, fruit juice, maple syrup, and honey morning through lunch followed by protein in the evening. This strategy would used by someone who is coming off of sugar fasting as they begin to approach their weight loss goal. Or as a way to maintain a desired body weight. Less rapid / slowed weight loss OR maintenance.

The end goal is to find balance. Like all dietary strategies, some people with find success with it and others will struggle. Again, I don't think that it's for everyone. And for those on carnivore who are curing autoimmune disease, have food intolerance issues, or struggle with sugar addictions this approach just doesn't suit these types of people.

Nick you also have to keep in mind you're a pot smoker coming into a narc anon meeting saying

I am going to try xxx, it's really not that bad it works for me so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

This is not personal but until you've been in our shoes you won't understand.

21 minutes ago, Meathead said:

Nick you also have to keep in mind you're a pot smoker coming into a narc anon meeting saying

I am going to try xxx, it's really not that bad it works for me so I don't see what all the fuss is about.

This is not personal but until you've been in our shoes you won't understand.

Yes! This made me laugh, ty. I think I have been in your shoes. I've been overweight for 3 years, felt my health and energy plummet, my joints have ached when I never injured myself, and witnessed my body turn into a jiggly blob. I did periods of a ketogenic diet going back over 2 years and experienced good things so I decided to go deeper. Ten months ago I adhered to Ken Berry's BBBE diet and followed it for 9 months. Things were great 5-6 months. Steady weight loss, improved energy & mental focus, and less pain. I was super happy. Then all the positives just seemed to stop. Weight loss plateaued and energy tanked. At month 8 the rash along my sides and armpits happened. I sought advice and gave it another couple week, but nothing changed. I could hardly sleep the itch was so bad. After trying to get through the rash for 4 weeks I gave up and ate carbs and the rash disappeared.

1 hour ago, Nick Heaz said:

Again, I don't think that it's for everyone.

Carnivore isn't for everyone either.

1 hour ago, Nick Heaz said:

The end goal is to find balance.

For the first time, I think I found balance doing carnivore/ketovore. No more bloating, no more inflammation, etc.

28 minutes ago, Nick Heaz said:

Yes! This made me laugh, ty. I think I have been in your shoes. I've been overweight for 3 years, felt my health and energy plummet, my joints have ached when I never injured myself, and witnessed my body turn into a jiggly blob. I did periods of a ketogenic diet going back over 2 years and experienced good things so I decided to go deeper. Ten months ago I adhered to Ken Berry's BBBE diet and followed it for 9 months. Things were great 5-6 months. Steady weight loss, improved energy & mental focus, and less pain. I was super happy. Then all the positives just seemed to stop. Weight loss plateaued and energy tanked. At month 8 the rash along my sides and armpits happened. I sought advice and gave it another couple week, but nothing changed. I could hardly sleep the itch was so bad. After trying to get through the rash for 4 weeks I gave up and ate carbs and the rash disappeared.

I'm chuckling right now because I had my first heart attack age 36 then major at 51 and another 4 months later.

So until you've experienced this you have yet to walk in my shoes 🤣

Ill save the rest for my interview 😴

32 minutes ago, Nick Heaz said:

Yes! This made me laugh, ty. I think I have been in your shoes. I've been overweight for 3 years, felt my health and energy plummet, my joints have ached when I never injured myself, and witnessed my body turn into a jiggly blob. I did periods of a ketogenic diet going back over 2 years and experienced good things so I decided to go deeper. Ten months ago I adhered to Ken Berry's BBBE diet and followed it for 9 months. Things were great 5-6 months. Steady weight loss, improved energy & mental focus, and less pain. I was super happy. Then all the positives just seemed to stop. Weight loss plateaued and energy tanked. At month 8 the rash along my sides and armpits happened. I sought advice and gave it another couple week, but nothing changed. I could hardly sleep the itch was so bad. After trying to get through the rash for 4 weeks I gave up and ate carbs and the rash disappeared.

Have you not considered adding a bit of low glycemic carbs, instead of blasting sugar like it's 1999? Small increments, I mean. And see where it goes?

6 minutes ago, Meathead said:

I'm chuckling right now because I had my first heart attack age 36 then major at 51 and another 4 months later.

So until you've experienced this you have yet to walk in my shoes 🤣

Ill save the rest for my interview 😴

We're all on our own journey 👍

2 hours ago, Nick Heaz said:

Sugar Fasting--think 'water fasting.'

In the early 2000's I did a guided juice fast with a Natural health practitioner. I can remeber calling her because I was feeling dizzy. Her response was "oh are you using organic veggies" and blamed it on the pesticides.

Many years later...from clean fasting I learned it was my body reacting to the sugar without any other nutrients. I don't think this method would work for me personally.

I listened to Kelly Hogan talk about this topic over the weekend and she surmises that you can get the same results from fat fasting. Its about the mass calorie intake combined with absence of protein that causes the widgets to spin. So I guess I would go with fat fasting or straight fasting before I tried this sugar business, mostly because of my negative response to the juice fasting. I don't like feeling hungry all day despite constantly attending to my pie hole.

2 hours ago, Nick Heaz said:

We're all on our own journey 👍

Yes we are thanks for realizing. Since this is a community and the only thing you have contributed here is to fit your agenda/narrative with this sugar fasting.

So I tip my hat and good luck with your journey where ever it takes you.

21 hours ago, Nick Heaz said:

I’m posing the question of why he didn’t offer the same caution to obese people trying keto considering he provides the same mechanism for fat loss while in ketosis,

Maybe because it’s been proven to work with fat people and while doing so keep them healthy.

A ketogenic way of eating heals the metabolism unlike a sugar diet that has no nutritional benefits. A ketogenic diet is not a weight loss diet.

5 weeks not long enough

Can harm liver in high doses

More than 5 weeks can cause metabolic derangement

Extremely high risk

Nick has an open mind but but won't try the sugar fast/diet (I wonder why) and won't gamble his liver on this.🤪

Nick usually keeps an open mind and will try for himself to do a study while giving results after his N=1.

So I have to trust Nick's intuition if he won't try it I would trust his methodology as to WHY he won't over

some mouth breather on the tube. 😬

On 6/9/2025 at 7:27 PM, Nick Heaz said:

Things were great 5-6 months. Steady weight loss, improved energy & mental focus, and less pain. I was super happy. Then all the positives just seemed to stop. Weight loss plateaued and energy tanked. At month 8 the rash along my sides and armpits happened. I sought advice and gave it another couple week, but nothing changed. I could hardly sleep the itch was so bad. After trying to get through the rash for 4 weeks I gave up and ate carbs and the rash disappeared.

How much weight did you lose in all before plateauing? And then am I correct in reading that you were plateaued for about 2 months and then the rash happened?

The rash is still a mystery, one that is unique to you. It's not the carnivore diet's fault. You would have gotten the rash long before this point in time if it was. Either it was environmental, or if it was diet-related it was something in the food you were eating OR you developed a sensitivity to something you were eating that you hadn't had previously. I think we already discussed examples like people who used to be able to eat eggs and then later develop some sort of intolerance towards them, but then egg source, egg quality, and chicken feed could all be the fine details behind the issue.

On 6/9/2025 at 8:01 PM, Orweller said:

Have you not considered adding a bit of low glycemic carbs, instead of blasting sugar like it's 1999? Small increments, I mean. And see where it goes?

And this comment is worthy of consideration. Some people do indeed fare better if their carnivore-centric diet (i.e. meat-based) leans in the direction of ketovore, keto, and even Saladino-style animal-based. Even he though, like Nick Norwitz, isn't going to be willing to chug soda and eat sour patch kids.

Hopefully you see that's where most of us are drawing the line. In the end, we are advocates for whole foods and are vehemently against ultra-processed, refined foods. If you want to eat apples, honey, and maple syrup, and can still lose weight and maintain your health doing so, by all means. But we will forever speak against gummy bears, refined sugar, high-fructose corn syrup, and other foods proven to be harmful.

On 6/9/2025 at 8:01 PM, Orweller said:

Have you not considered adding a bit of low glycemic carbs, instead of blasting sugar like it's 1999? Small increments, I mean. And see where it goes?

This is a very sensible approach to easing into carnivore or expanding carnivore toward keto or maybe the keto-vore hybrid approach. I think it could work going in either direction. The guy in the gym who eats sweet potatoes on Thursday nights before his weekly heavy day uses that approach. As far as the gym aspect goes that approach is working extremely well for him. I lifted alongside him week before last and I will leave it at, "I got work to do".

To beat the proverbial dead horse, I went into carnivore as a weight loss hack with zero expectations for any health-related improvements unless they stemmed directly from the weight loss. In 6-7 weeks of carnivore I went off semi-daily medicine for pain and inflammation. For me, carnivore was a weight loss hack that happened to have a bonus plan. With that said, I don't see me venturing back toward the carbs and sugars. If I did, and I doubt I do, it would be similar to what I am seeing work/see working for my buddy in the gym.

I'm the pot calling the kettle black, as I would not advise a drastic change in diet going into carnivore nor coming out. I'd ease in or ease out, depending on your direction. babbling, but I wonder about the adjustment period from going carnivore to basically straight sugar, all of a sudden?

I ask this because I bought a vanilla milkshake type drink once because the cap was blue and I didn't have my glasses. I drink milk on occasion so I don't think the dairy part of the drink had much effect, but the sugar gave me a cleaning out like none other. It was all the descriptive words like powerful, violent, over the fence and for distance, all of the above.

How was your first days on the switch?

Scott