Advice for the newbies

[Debashis]

What advice would you give to someone considering or starting a meat-based ketogenic lifestyle for the first time?

Are there things they should be cautious about? Let your knowledge flow here.

[Geezy]

Research, research, research.
Read about carnivore and come to a complete understanding about how to do it and how it works in your body. Then, understand how your body functions in regards to how glycogen and fats work on your metabolic health.
Get on utube and follow the carnivore doctors such as Ken Berry, Shawn Baker, Anthony Chaffee. They, and others of their ilk can help you get started down the right path. Then there are numerous utube carnivore influencers that share their stories, successes, failures, tips and methods to help you stay motivated and knowledgeable. Immerse yourself in the knowledge available to you.
Carnivore is not a magic bullet. Carnivore is not a diet. Carnivore is a way of eating which enables your body to undo years of metabolic damage, abuse from calorie restricted diets, and metabolic disregulation. Carnivore is primarily about health and healing.
Yes- it is true that the weight will come off. But! It will do it when it wants to. For some people it happens fast, for others slow because we are all different.


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[Bob]

On 11/18/2023 at 4:37 AM, Debashis said:

What advice would you give to someone considering or starting a meat-based ketogenic lifestyle for the first time?

Are there things they should be cautious about? Let your knowledge flow here.

My starting advice would depend on your answer to where are you coming from? What is your current diet?

If you are vegetarian interested in the benefits of carnivore, or currently eating the standard American junk diet, I would recommend a gradual transition to carnivore. Something like this....

Week 1: Cut your carbs to 100g or less per day. Remove all sugars, grains, and seed oils.
Week 2: Cut your carbs to 50g or less. Start eating 3 meals a day with NO snacking in between.
Week 3: Cut your carbs to 20g or less. Start focusing on filling half your plate with fatty meat, and the other half low carb veggies.
Week 4: Cut your carbs to 10g or less. Now 3/4th of your plate is fatty meat and 1/4 is veggies.
Week 5 and beyond, only eat animal products. It will basically be zerocarb or trace carbs.

The reason for this is because if you switch suddenly, you might experience what is called the "keto flu" which is a run down groggy feeling that lasts a few days to a few weeks. Also, your bowel habits will change, and this slower transition will help you understand these changes are fine (you will go sit down just a couple times a week instead of multiple times a day). 

Now others prefer to jump right in. I think that's what @Geezy says he did. And that is okay to. You just have to power through the transition phase. But once you are fat adapted, you should feel great and energized most of the time.

[Steven2023]

Okay. I'm a noob at this (well, sort of. Like I said before, I did do Adkins for a couple of years with no problems).

The way I understand it, the goal is to reduce your carbs to zero as well as get through the transition eating only animal products. I prefer to jump right in like @Geezy did and get on with it. So far, I haven't had any sugars or carbs and have made up my mind to eliminate everything that is not animal based (Milk is animal based but has lactose, so it is out).

In my research and quest for further understanding, I watch a lot of YT videos on tips and tricks to navigate through this new adventure. This is where I am coming into some confusion, and I know there are variations of the carnivore diet. But some of the stuff I've seen others do has me scratching my head. So, I am assuming I am missing something and therefore the confusion.

The bottom line is I see others eating stuff that has been processed with sugars or dextrose, etc. To my understanding, that would be a red flag to go that direction. For instance this ham:   

When I scan the shelves, I see something like this and it interests me. So I start checking the label.

Quote

Ingredients

Pork, Water, Raw Sugar, Sea Salt, Vinegar, Blend Of Sugar And Honey (Cane Sugar, Honey), Maple Sugar, Natural Flavor.

From the ingredient list, it tells me this one is off limits. But then if you go to the nutritional label:

Quote

Quote

Nutrition facts

14.0 servings per container
Serving size	2oz (56g)
Amount per serving

Calories	60
% Daily Value*
2% Total Fat1.5g 3% Saturated Fat0.5g   Trans Fat0g 11% Cholesterol35mg 21% Sodium500mg 0% Total Carbohydrate1g 0% Dietary Fiber0g   Sugars1g   Protein12g 0% Vitamin A 0% Vitamin C 0% Calcium 0% Iron
*The % Daily Value (DV) tells you how much a nutrient in a serving of food contributes to a daily diet. 2,000 calories a day is used for general nutrition advice.

According to this, it has 0% carbs. So even though the ingredients include all those sugars and honey, since the carbs are 0%, is it okay to consume on this diet?

I see ambiguity in other products as well. A lot of deli meats are processed with dextrose, yet many are eating them. So, this brings up another question concerning 'should I' or 'shouldn't I'. Plain yellow mustard has zero carbs, zero sugar. Is it okay to use mustard? Olives with pimentos have zero sugar/zero carbs. Is it okay to eat olives? Jalapeno slices (*in the jar in brine) has 1g of sugar but zero carbs. I used to put these in my scrambled eggs for breakfast. Since it is zero carbs, it is okay? That ham had 1g of sugar.

Then there is an ambiguity with some dairy products. I've read several places that kefir is on the 'okay to eat' list. But when I look at the label (this is the plain unsweetened one) it says there is 8g of carbs (3%) and those 8g are sugar.

I look at a mayonnaise jar and it says zero carbs/zero sugars. But it is made with seed oil. So to me, this is not okay to eat because we are trying to eliminate all seed oils. BTW, what about olive oil? It's not seed oil and it's zero carbs/zero sugar.

I have also noticed that some people will not use any kind of spice except salt. Then others will use spices to broaden the tastes of the meats they eat. And as far as I know, spices are all zero carb/zero sugars.

Apparently, I am missing something. I'm not trying to make excuses to eat the things I used to eat. I want to do the diet correctly. If it's allowed, I'll do it. If it's not, then I won't. So that is my dilemma.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[Geezy]

Your confusion is totally understandable Steven. I felt the same way in the beginning.
What I came to understand was there are no set rules to eating this way because it all boils down to individuality.
What works for my physiology may not work for yours.
Remember, this is an elimination diet. Start with a foundation of clean meats, salt and water. Stay clean for 90 days. Introduce something that you like for few days and see how it affects you. No problems? It can stay. Issues m? It’s gone forever. Build on it from there, slowly.
You have to build your own diet/lifestyle plan according to your needs, not anyone else’s.
I personally avoid all sugars and sugar alternatives but if a little sneaks in once in awhile I don’t worry about it. In something like sugars used in a cured meat it’s not that much. I make my own bacon and before carnivore my brine/cure required a lot of brown sugar and maple syrup but after the curing process was over most of it was rinsed off. There was still some residual sugar but considering the slight amount on the surface of each slice I don’t believe it’s enough to do much harm unless you are super sensitive to it.
With all that being said I still avoid sugar as much as possible. If given a choice I wall always go without.
The only items I allow in my diet that are not carnivore is one cup of bulletproof tea in the morning and some spices. Those spices must be sugar and sweetener free.
I eat meat of any kind, eggs, cheese , cream and yogurt sparingly and pork rinds fried in lard.
The only fats I use are ghee, lard and tallow, which I make myself.
I do not allow vegetables, seeds, seed oils and sugar (if at all possible)

Now here is a concession that I might make if I went to a restaurant and there were no steaks or any meats that weren’t clean enough to suit me. I would consider jalapeño poppers as long as they’re not breaded and deep fried. Bacon wrapped and stuffed with cream cheese is tolerable for me and doesn’t affect me but I would only eat that I’d there was no other alternative.
Find your path, just start from a clean foundation.


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[Steven2023]

8 minutes ago, Geezy said:

Stay clean for 90 days.

It sounds like this is the only path then. Before starting my diet, like everyone, I was able to eat what I wanted but all that came with the consequences I wish to reverse. 90 days seems like a long time to endure, and I fear getting bored with not being able to change up the flavors as much as I'd like to. I understand the concept and it makes sense. Apparently, our physiology changes during the 90 days and we have to start over with things we may have been able to eat before with no problem to ensure there isn't a new undiscovered problem waiting to manifest itself.

15 minutes ago, Geezy said:

You have to build your own diet/lifestyle plan according to your needs, not anyone else’s.

This makes perfect sense. Like I said. I just don't want to become bored with the limited flavors that only salt yields. I love eggs and I used to add a ton of things to them, especially omelets. Bacon is another one of my all-time favorites. 

22 minutes ago, Geezy said:

In something like sugars used in a cured meat it’s not that much.

If I can eat some of these processed deli meats during my 90-day journey, that would help relieve some of potential boredom. When I checked at the grocery store, it seemed like over 95% of the meats were cured with some sugar or dextrose. It was a shocker for me.

27 minutes ago, Geezy said:

There was still some residual sugar but considering the slight amount on the surface of each slice I don’t believe it’s enough to do much harm unless you are super sensitive to it.

Right now, I don't think I am sensitive at all to it. But that could change after 90 days.

All in all, I am jazzed for this diet, and I really want to do it correctly. I will have to keep watching YT for recipes that are allowed during the 90 days of total elimination. Thanks for answering, it really helps out.

[Geezy]

There is a great variety of meats and ways to cook them that if you use your imagination you shouldn’t get bored. There are bacon’s out there that are sugar free. Fish, salmon, yellow fin tuna pan seared in butter. Any cheap cut of beef or venison slow cooked in beef broth. Tuna salad, salmon salad, chicken salad, deviled eggs, all made with carnivore friendly mayo. Rotisserie chicken from the store slathered in butter. Lamb, beef slow smoked to tender perfection or flame grilled over an open fire. No limits except in your imagination.
Stick with it long enough and you should become fat adapted and may become like me in that I generally only eat OMAD because I only eat when hungry and when I do eat it’s strictly for nutrition and not for pleasure, fuel not fun. Don’t get me wrong, I like my food to taste good but it’s just not a priority anymore.


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[Bob]

20 hours ago, Steven2023 said:

This is where I am coming into some confusion, and I know there are variations of the carnivore diet.

Yup. We recently wrote about all the variations...
https://carnivoretalk.com/articles/carnivore-diet-resources/the-various-types-of-carnivore-diets-r11/

Which variation you pursue might depend on your overall metabolic health, your weight loss or health goals, your age, and your DNA. For those who adopt an Animal-based lifestyle, milk is carnivore because it is an animal product, and the same goes for honey. Many of these individuals still think "plants are trying to kill you" but not by means of their fruitage, and so they will eat seasonal fruit. We all agree that seed oils are the devil, lol. This might work well for you, especially if you are young and metabolically healthy and still keep your carbohydrates under 100g or so a day. Your "lower carb" but not necessarily ketogenic all the time.

If you are wanting to heal health issues or lose weight, then a stricter form of carnivore is what you are after. No sugars. Zero carb. Just meat and salt. Some refuse spices while others will still enjoy them. It will often be recommended that you try Lion Diet (beef, salt, water) or "BBBE" (beef butter bacon and eggs) for 90 days as an elimination diet, and then slowly add in other meats, spices, etc, and see how you react.

Regarding the ham and other cured meats, @Geezy explained it very well. For many of these, it was just in the brine solution that it soaked in and most of it rinsed off. That's why you will see "<1g carb" or "1 carb" but that is trivial compared to the donuts and candy you may have been putting down your pipe before. I eat beef jerky and processed meats, and I always make sure if less savory ingredients are on the label, that they come after the "contains less than 2% of....." portion at the end and it has 1 or <1 g of carbs/sugars. There's some beef jerky's where sugar or brown sugar is the 2nd ingredient and has 6 or more carbs per serving. Stay away from this. It's basically sugar glazed meat.

I use avocado oil mayonnaise by Sir Kensington because I won't touch regular mayo anymore due to the seed oils. However, if I am out and about and don't have much choice, once in a blue moon isn't gonna kill me. After all, I've been slathering regular soybean oil mayo on my sandwiches for the last 48 years. I am okay with olive oil, coconut oil, and avocado oil too. I will occasionally still use jalapeno peppers and salsa when I simply need to satisfy a desire for something different. I've never been a big fan of olives, but I can eat them just fine. According to the animal-based people, the olive would be the fruitage and acceptable anyway. I also use mustard from time to time.

Most restaurants will accommodate my special needs. But there are exceptions. For example, about once a month my family wants Mexican. If I just ask for meat then I feel like I am getting ripped off, so I will have a salad. They probably grill the fajita steak strips in seed oil, but again, it's a once in a blue moon thing and I'm not gonna die, lol. Also once a month the guy who works for me and I will go out for lunch. He's not big on fast food where I can just order beef patties and bacon, so he likes to go to Chipotle. I'll get a salad there also.

I also drink hot tea in the morning and Zevia later in the day.

So in a given month, I probably break true carnivore about for 3 or 4 meals. Two of them are salads. And then the occasional peppers and salsa. And right now I do eat a lot of processed meats because I pack a lunch and they make for easy packings. But I do think about getting a microwave for my tool trailer/truck so I can heat up some pure ground beef or leftover steaks instead. But even then, the pork rinds and beef sticks and cheese I eat all have pretty clean ingredients and I am still losing weight and have reverse some conditions while including them so they work for me. 

 

[Geezy]

Oh Bob, you are so bad.


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[Bob]

This discussion made me thing of this inforgraphic....

[Steven2023]

25 minutes ago, Bob said:

This discussion made me thing of this inforgraphic....

Just by looking at this graphic, I imagine myself ending up in the realm of the relaxed carnivore. I really like to eat cheese and can't imagine life without it.  But it is recommended to do the lion diet for 90 days first and then start a slow journey back to where you choose to end up?

[Bob]

8 hours ago, Steven2023 said:

recommended to do the lion diet for 90 days first and then start a slow journey back to where you choose to end up?

Depends how sick you are and what you are sick with.

Since you said in your introduction post that your primary goal is losing weight, I think "Relaxed Carnivore" would be a fine place to start. I personally eased into carnivore gradually because I started doing low-carb / dirty keto again in March (low carb tortillas, breads, protein bars, sugar free jelly, etc.) and shortly after that started paying attention to Dr. Berry videos where he scoffed at so-called "keto" products and encouraged eating clean, just meat and veggies. So in April I dropped the processed "keto" foods and started eating clean keto. As the month went by, I started leaning towards ketovore because now I was consuming his YouTube content that talked about a carnivore diet. Being that I always believed in low carb, carnivore did make sense to me. Then in May when I broke my ankle, I went full carnivore - but usually in the "Relaxed Carnivore" category on that chart. I have done several stints of "Strict Carnivore" but I don't stick with it. I like my tea and I like my spices. 

So you could start in the left and transition to the right. Or you can jump right in wherever you are comfortable.

Now if your "why" for doing carnivore was to reverse an auto-immune or chronic condition, then getting over to Lion Diet would definitely be the goal so you can eliminate everything for a while and then start adding things back in to test how you respond to them. But if weight loss is your primary motivation, then keto, ketovore, OR carnivore could be the sweet spot for you.

[Geezy]

According to that chart I’m a relaxed carni. I’ve always just called it dirty carnivore. Relaxed sounds nicer.
It’s worked well for me.


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[Steven2023]

8 hours ago, Bob said:

Depends how sick you are and what you are sick with.

 

Well. I don't think I am really sick with anything other than my tinnitus. My BP is quite normal for my age. I was on BP medication some years ago when I started driving 18-wheelers and I had to qualify for my medical card for my CDL. But as time went on, I transitioned off of the medication and controlled my BP with grapefruit, coconut oil and other things dietary. Haven't had any problems since and still control it that way. However, now I have to leave off the grapefruit and just use coconut oil. 1 tablespoon a day does it for me. 

The relaxed carnivore sounds like where I would like to be. And if I can always jump into the lion diet later if I feel it would help anything that might manifest, then that sound like a good idea. I like all my no-carb spices, cheeses, dairy. And as you put in that large post, avocado oil, olive oil and coconut oil, that would be super. I could make my own mayonnaise. And there seems to be a lot of products that are zero carb/zero sugar that would enhance the variety of flavors to make.

So, if it's okay to start from that point (relaxed carnivore), then that's what I'll do. 

[Orweller]

On 11/30/2023 at 11:58 PM, Bob said:

This discussion made me thing of this inforgraphic....

Thanks for this. I am 2 days into Carnivore, and just now joined here. But this one infographic really cleared some things up for me. 

[Bob]

21 minutes ago, Orweller said:

Thanks for this. I am 2 days into Carnivore, and just now joined here. But this one infographic really cleared some things up for me. 

Welcome aboard @Orweller. We look forward to getting to know you and hearing about your successes

[Orweller]

18 minutes ago, Bob said:

Welcome aboard @Orweller. We look forward to getting to know you and hearing about your successes

Thank you for the warm welcome. 

[Angela Little]

On 11/21/2023 at 7:02 PM, Bob said:

My starting advice would depend on your answer to where are you coming from? What is your current diet?

If you are vegetarian interested in the benefits of carnivore, or currently eating the standard American junk diet, I would recommend a gradual transition to carnivore. Something like this....

Week 1: Cut your carbs to 100g or less per day. Remove all sugars, grains, and seed oils.
Week 2: Cut your carbs to 50g or less. Start eating 3 meals a day with NO snacking in between.
Week 3: Cut your carbs to 20g or less. Start focusing on filling half your plate with fatty meat, and the other half low carb veggies.
Week 4: Cut your carbs to 10g or less. Now 3/4th of your plate is fatty meat and 1/4 is veggies.
Week 5 and beyond, only eat animal products. It will basically be zerocarb or trace carbs.

The reason for this is because if you switch suddenly, you might experience what is called the "keto flu" which is a run down groggy feeling that lasts a few days to a few weeks. Also, your bowel habits will change, and this slower transition will help you understand these changes are fine (you will go sit down just a couple times a week instead of multiple times a day). 

Now others prefer to jump right in. I think that's what @Geezy says he did. And that is okay to. You just have to power through the transition phase. But once you are fat adapted, you should feel great and energized most of the time.

can you do a sample menu, this is my biggest problem, meal planning or mixing the right food combo

 

[Angela Little]

What is the difference between Carnivore and Keto?

 

 

[Angela Little]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:35 PM, Geezy said:

There is a great variety of meats and ways to cook them that if you use your imagination you shouldn’t get bored. There are bacon’s out there that are sugar free. Fish, salmon, yellow fin tuna pan seared in butter. Any cheap cut of beef or venison slow cooked in beef broth. Tuna salad, salmon salad, chicken salad, deviled eggs, all made with carnivore friendly mayo. Rotisserie chicken from the store slathered in butter. Lamb, beef slow smoked to tender perfection or flame grilled over an open fire. No limits except in your imagination.
Stick with it long enough and you should become fat adapted and may become like me in that I generally only eat OMAD because I only eat when hungry and when I do eat it’s strictly for nutrition and not for pleasure, fuel not fun. Don’t get me wrong, I like my food to taste good but it’s just not a priority anymore.


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I love the conception but it is so confusing to me.